Was Peter a Pope, at least the first?

[Edward65]

Mark and Luke were not in apostles or prophets. So on what basis do you include their gospels in the Bible?

Where is the word "Trinity" in the Bible? Since it is not in the bible, does that mean that we should not teach it?

The word "rapture" is only used once in the Bible, without saying anything about whether the rapture comes before, in the middle, or after the tribulation. Should we avoid teaching about this?

Where is it in Bible about "asking Jesus into your heart"? That phrase is not used even once in the Bible. Should we preach about that?
And what about "altar calls"? Should we not have altars calls because they are not in then Bible?

Why is there not one doctrine that Bible-believing Christians can agree on except possibly that Jesus isd Lord? Bible believing Christians cannot even agree how to be saved. Are we save by acepting Christ as Savior only? Or must we accept Christ as Savior and Lord? It seems to me that each person believes he interpreting the Bible correctly. It is always the other guy that is twisting scripture.

Mark and Luke wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit and were therefore New Testament prophets.

Your argument seems to be that because there are so many divergent interpretations amongst those who aren't Catholics, one needs to have an authoritative leader, similarly inspired by the Holy Spirit like the Apostles, to lead the faithful on the true path, and then there will be no more disputes as to what the Bible actually teaches.

Well it sounds alright in theory, but the trouble with it is that God in His wisdom didn’t arrange things that way, however much you Catholics assume He must have done and interpret the Bible along these lines, twisting it to teach that Peter was a pope and Christ started the Papacy etc.

Those who are true Christians are taught by the Holy Spirit to recognise the true interpretation of Scripture and to believe the truth. Those who aren't Christ’s sheep will fail to understand Scripture properly and will end up believing all sorts of false interpretations, like a secret rapture, and adopting behaviours which aren’t consistent with the Gospel.

For a doctrine to be a true teaching the word we use to describe it doesn’t need to be contained in the Bible, but only the teaching does, so since for instance the Bible clearly teaches that God is triune, or three divine Persons in one divine Essence, it teaches the Trinity.

 

[Albion]

Peter the first pope? Yes. And considering his latest successor, I wish Peter would come back.

The answer to this question is remarkably simple. No, Peter wasn't a pope, but the only church that has such an office considers him to have been one. Mormons think Joseph Smith was a prophet and the Anglican churches consider Charles I to be a saint, so that's about all we're dealing with. It's all 'after the fact.'

I'm always somewhat amused when people try to "prove" that Peter was a pope by referring to a list of popes in the World Book or some such reference source. Well, sure, that's a list of the men that that church considers to be their popes, that's all.

 

[Yarddog]

Was he really the Church's first Pope?

Yes, but probably not in the same way that many people view the papacy.

I used to be one of the biggest debaters against the papacy on Catholic forums. I could refute basically every position Catholics took, except for Irenaeus' writing. Many have tried to refute his proclamation, from the ECF's, but they were pretty weak positions.

It wasn't until a young boy posted that he was beginning to doubt God because of my debates. It was then that the Holy Spirit came upon me and showed me that I had damaged a child of God. It was my fault that he was losing faith.

The Spirit then opened my mind to what John wrote in his Gospel, chapter 21. There were most of the disciples gathered together at the sea of Tiberias when Jesus appeared to them. After eating Jesus spoke to only Peter, even though other Apostles were sitting there and appointed him to be the shepherd of all of his sheep, which included the Apostles.

15 So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again a second time, Simon, [son] of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Now, we must understand that John's Gospel was the last book written from our Bible. John knew what had befallen all of his brethren. He could have but didn't proclaim this for himself, though he does call himself the disciple which Jesus loved. John knew that Peter had gone to Rome and had been crucified there but he wrote that only Peter was given the position of tending to all of Jesus' sheep, which is the Church.

Now there are different views among those of the ancient Church to what this was intended to mean. The Orthodox Church believe that Peter's authority lies within the position of Bishop and that they are all equals, while the Catholic Church believes that Peter passed that authority to his successors at Rome.

Many view the position of Pope as being that of "authority over" the Church but a shepherd really isn't about that but as being a protector over those which God has given him. A shepherd guides his sheep to good pastures and protects them from the dangers of the world.

Jesus asked Peter three times do you love me and told him, feed my sheep the same number of time, just as Peter denied him three times. I have no doubt that Jesus was priming Peter for the task of leading his Church after he went to the Father. Peter was humbled so that he wouldn't exercise authority over the others but to gently guide the flock.

The title Pope means 'papa' and a father loves his children and guides them and is willing to die for them just as the Good Shepherd did and taught Peter to do.

 

[Albion]

Yes, but probably not in the same way that many people view the papacy.

I used to be one of the biggest debaters against the papacy on Catholic forums. I could refute basically every position Catholics took, except for Irenaeus' writing. Many have tried to refute his proclamation, from the ECF's, but they were pretty weak positions.

It wasn't until a young boy posted that he was beginning to doubt God because of my debates. It was then that the Holy Spirit came upon me and showed me that I had damaged a child of God. It was my fault that he was losing faith.

The Spirit then opened my mind to what John wrote in his Gospel, chapter 21. There were most of the disciples gathered together at the sea of Tiberias when Jesus appeared to them. After eating Jesus spoke to only Peter, even though other Apostles were sitting there and appointed him to be the shepherd of all of his sheep, which included the Apostles.

15 So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, [son] of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.
16 He saith to him again a second time, Simon, [son] of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep.
17 He saith unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.
18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.
19 Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me.

Now, we must understand that John's Gospel was the last book written from our Bible. John knew what had befallen all of his brethren. He could have but didn't proclaim this for himself, though he does call himself the disciple which Jesus loved. John knew that Peter had gone to Rome and had been crucified there but he wrote that only Peter was given the position of tending to all of Jesus' sheep, which is the Church.

Now there are different views among those of the ancient Church to what this was intended to mean. The Orthodox Church believe that Peter's authority lies within the position of Bishop and that they are all equals, while the Catholic Church believes that Peter passed that authority to his successors at Rome.

Many view the position of Pope as being that of "authority over" the Church but a shepherd really isn't about that but as being a protector over those which God has given him. A shepherd guides his sheep to good pastures and protects them from the dangers of the world.

Jesus asked Peter three times do you love me and told him, feed my sheep the same number of time, just as Peter denied him three times. I have no doubt that Jesus was priming Peter for the task of leading his Church after he went to the Father. Peter was humbled so that he wouldn't exercise authority over the others but to gently guide the flock.

The title Pope means 'papa' and a father loves his children and guides them and is willing to die for them just as the Good Shepherd did and taught Peter to do.

Even if we concede a special position to Peter--which most of us, regardless of denomination do--that doesn't in any way make the idea of Popes, or what the office claims to be, or a line of them, or any 'passing on' of some special power or assignment from Peter to anyone else...true. There, the whole argument falls flat, and yet that's the most important part!

 

[Yarddog]

Even if we concede a special position to Peter--which most of us, regardless of denomination do--that doesn't in any way make the idea of Popes, or what the office claims to be, or a line of them, or any 'passing on' of some special power or assignment from Peter to anyone else...true.

And neither does rejecting it make it false. Many people put forth their arguments for and against the Papacy but none can prove that their position is true or false.

 

[Albion]

And neither does rejecting it make it false. Many people put forth their arguments for and against the Papacy but none can prove that their position is true or false.

I don't agree. We have plenty of information sufficient to make a decision on the facts. Of course, if you're going to take the approach that something should be treated as God's truth so long as it can't be DISproven, almost anything could be made into a dogma, couldn't it? We wouldn't even need Scripture or Tradition, just whatever the leaders thought was a good idea.

 

[Edward65]

Many view the position of Pope as being that of "authority over" the Church but a shepherd really isn't about that but as being a protector over those which God has given him. A shepherd guides his sheep to good pastures and protects them from the dangers of the world.

True shepherds don’t hunt the sheep down and try and have them killed, as some of the popes have done in the past, by trying to have those who won’t accept their authority exterminated (often successfully). However the main reason why the popes aren’t from God is because they contradict the teaching of the Apostles that justification is through faith alone, and isn't a combination of faith and works. God saves us completely through Christ atoning for sin, and the Holy Spirit giving us the faith to believe this.

 

[Yarddog]

True shepherds don’t hunt the sheep down and try and have them killed, as some of the popes have done in the past, by trying to have those who won’t accept their authority exterminated (often successfully).

Any hunting wasn't done hunting sheep. It was hunting the wolves which were after the sheep. Heretics, in the eyes of the Church are wolves, whether people understand that now or even then.

However the main reason why the popes aren’t from God is because they contradict the teaching of the Apostles that justification is through faith alone, and isn't a combination of faith and works.

First off, you will not find a single place, in scripture or other apostolic source, where the Apostles taught that justification was by faith alone. Second, the Catholic Church does not teach that justification comes through works. Justification is a gift which cannot be earned.

God saves us completely through Christ atoning for sin, and the Holy Spirit giving us the faith to believe this.

We are saved through faith in Christ but salvation does not come to those without works of God's Spirit. We are given a gift but those who do not put his talents to use will be turned away. That is scripture.

 

[Yarddog]

I don't agree. We have plenty of information sufficient to make a decision on the facts.

And Catholics will say the same thing for their position.

Of course, if you're going to take the approach that something should be treated as God's truth so long as it can't be DISproven, almost anything could be made into a dogma, couldn't it?

That is the position of many non-Catholic Church's doctrine.

We wouldn't even need Scripture or Tradition, just whatever the leaders thought was a good idea.

And again, that occurs in most non-Catholic Churches.

 

[Edward65]

Any hunting wasn't done hunting sheep. It was hunting the wolves which were after the sheep. Heretics, in the eyes of the Church are wolves, whether people understand that now or even then.

First off, you will not find a single place, in scripture or other apostolic source, where the Apostles taught that justification was by faith alone. Second, the Catholic Church does not teach that justification comes through works. Justification is a gift which cannot be earned.

We are saved through faith in Christ but salvation does not come to those without works of God's Spirit. We are given a gift but those who do not put his talents to use will be turned away. That is scripture.

Notwithstanding that Christ said to let the wheat and the weeds grow together until the end of the age when the angels would separate the two (Matt 13), your popes set about trying to burn what they thought were weeds beforehand when in actual fact they were often burning the wheat. In reality it’s the popes and their clergy who are the wolves, and the sheep are the ones who have had to suffer at their hands down the centuries.

The sheep believe the Gospel that the righteousness that saves them is the righteousness that God imputes to them through their faith in Christ and isn’t an inherent righteousness of their own which has been infused into them through their works. Since faith alone (which is the teaching of Scripture) is rejected by Catholicism, it follows it teaches justification through faith and works which isn’t the teaching of Scripture.

Those who have true faith of course do good works but they don’t justify them or make them righteous before God. They’re done because a Christian is already accounted righteous, and from love of others.

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Eph 2:8-10, ESV)

 

[Edward65]

And Catholics will say the same thing for their position.

That is the position of many non-Catholic Church's doctrine.

And again, that occurs in most non-Catholic Churches.

You inadvertently attributed to me what Albion said, so I'll let him reply to you if he wishes.

 

[Yarddog]

The sheep believe the Gospel that the righteousness that saves them is the righteousness that God imputes to them through their faith in Christ and isn’t an inherent righteousness of their own which has been infused into them through their works. Since faith alone (which is the teaching of Scripture) is rejected by Catholicism, it follows it teaches justification through faith and works which isn’t the teaching of Scripture.

There is no need to go into that since you obviously don't understand the Catholic doctrine of Justification and this thread is not about this subject.

 

[Yarddog]

You inadvertently attributed to me what Albion said, so I'll let him reply to you if he wishes.

sorry. I'll edit the post.

 

[Albion]

That is the position of many non-Catholic Church's doctrine.

And again, that occurs in most non-Catholic Churches.

I don't think that those comments can be substantiated with facts, but I'm willing to listen.

 

[Edward65]

There is no need to go into that since you obviously don't understand the Catholic doctrine of Justification and this thread is not about this subject.

Regardless of whether I understand the Catholic position or not, and I think I do, the teaching of Scripture is that one is justified or regarded as righteousness through faith alone (since Christ's righteousness is credited to those who believe in Him). This is the major difference between Protestantism and Catholicism as you will no doubt be aware, and the Protestant position was outright condemned by Trent, which therefore means that Catholicism teaches a different gospel - one which I'm completely sure would have been condemned by the Apostles as utterly false and ruinous, and which can't save anyone.

 

[barryatlake]

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." These words of Our Savior in Matthew 16:18 form the core of the Catholic Church's claim to be the one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ: Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia--"Where Peter is, there is the Church." The Pope, the successor of Peter as bishop of Rome, is the sure sign that the Catholic Church remains the Church of Christ and His apostles.

 

[Albion]

"Thou art Peter, and upon this rock, I will build my Church, and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it." These words of Our Savior in Matthew 16:18 form the core of the Catholic Church's claim to be the one, true Church founded by Jesus Christ

Agreed. Several hundred years after the founding of the church of Christ, the bishop of Rome started marketing that claim to fame.

"Where Peter is, there is the Church.

Of course you're NOT quoting the Bible in this case. Wonder why you didn't mention that.

The Pope, the successor of Peter as bishop of Rome, is the sure sign that the Catholic Church remains the Church of Christ and His apostles.

...and we close with a self serving claim that is accompanied by neither Scripture nor a vague comment by a "church father."

 

[barryatlake]

Beats the history of your man-made 16TH CENTURY sect.

 

[Albion]

Beats the history of your man-made 16TH CENTURY sect.

Founded at about the same time or several years before Peter is believed to have reached Rome. Yeh, that one.

 

[Edward65]

Beats the history of your man-made 16TH CENTURY sect.

"The chief cause that I fell out with the pope was this: the pope boasted that he was the head of the church, and condemned all that would not be under his power and authority; for he said, although Christ be the Head of the church, yet, notwithstanding, there must be a corporal head of the church upon earth. With this I could have been content, had he but taught the Gospel pure and clear, and not introduced human inventions and lies in its stead. Further, he took upon him power, rule, and authority over the Christian church, and over the Holy Scriptures, the Word of God; no man must presume to expound the Scriptures, but only he, and according to his ridiculous conceits; so that he made himself lord over the church, proclaiming her at the same time a powerful mother, and empress over the Scriptures, to which we must yield and be obedient; this was not to be endured. They who, against God’s Word, boast of the church’s authority, are mere idiots. The pope attributes more power to the church, which is begotten and born, than to the Word, which has begotten, conceived, and borne the church. We, through God’s grace, are not heretics, but schismatics, causing, indeed, separation and division, wherein we are not to blame, but our adversaries, who gave occasion thereto, because they remain not by God’s Word alone, which we have, hear, and follow".

(From Luther’s Table Talk)