Was Paul's Thorn Some Sickness?

[DaveKerwin]

For those of you who don't read other threads, I will re-post this here, because it is a similar topic, and I think it is relevant. Please comment on it.



there is a guy in my church who has cerebral palsy. He is a very bright guy, but he can't speak that well. If you listen to him, you can hear him fine. I remember this one time....

Eric has been told his whole life by other christians that it was God's will that he get healed of cerebral palsy. He believed that. Time and time again, he would get prayed for, laid hands on, the whole nine yards. For years this did not work, and for years Eric tolied over this non-healing. Then he left that church. He came to mine. Recently he declared that he is no longer ill. He said he is now well. The he explained. He said something very similar to this: "I always wanted to be healed. And recently I realized that I was healed. My biggest ailement has been healed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and now I am well." To me, Eric has come to a wonderful conclusion, HE IS HEALED ! Jesus Christ has healed his soul!

 

[Glen]

To me, it seems like people get way too carried away with this. When God converted Paul - remember the scales that fell from his eyes? Or, how about Galatians - why can't it be as easy as it sounds? Am I missing something? Why is Paul's thorn so interesting?

Gal 4:14 and that which was a trial to you in my bodily condition you did not despise or loathe, but you received me as an angel of God, as Christ Jesus Himself.
Gal 4:15 Where then is that sense of blessing you had? For I bear you witness that, if possible, you would have plucked out your eyes and given them to me.

 

[LouisBooth]

anyone who says I'm preaching another Jesus because I say he could have been sick is not reading scripture to closely, nor does he understand what being human is all about. If you live in a fallen world you can get sick, thats the jist of it.

 

[LouisBooth]

no no no..Dave, you misunderstand me. I do think it could be physical, I actually do think its physical, but it is debataeble. Its not cold hard fact either way. Its not an essential docterine, so it could go either way. From what I see though in this and other of his letters it lends itself to a physical explaination.

 

[Andrew]

quote:"Andrew, nice first post. Next time quote the source before you post it though, so people know you didn't write it."
quote:"he took it from a book, surely you mean "well quoted, brother"

Dave,
No need to get jealous just becos someone encouraged me. BTW I wrote every word. Got info from Christ the Healer book by FF Bosworth (a classic on healing) and added my own findings.

you shld read that book -- it'll clear up your misundertndings abt sickness, faith and healing.

 

[LouisBooth]

Eric has been told his whole life by other christians that it was God's will that he get healed of cerebral palsy. He believed that. Time and time again, he would get prayed for, laid hands on, the whole nine yards. For years this did not work, and for years Eric tolied over this non-healing. Then he left that church. He came to mine. Recently he declared that he is no longer ill. He said he is now well. The he explained. He said something very similar to this: "I always wanted to be healed. And recently I realized that I was healed. My biggest ailement has been healed by the blood of Jesus Christ, and now I am well." To me, Eric has come to a wonderful conclusion, HE IS HEALED ! Jesus Christ has healed his soul!

Great story!!!!! Now that's the healing I want!!! That's the healing Christ was talking about.

 

[Andrew]

" To me, Eric has come to a wonderful conclusion, HE IS HEALED ! Jesus Christ has healed his soul!"

IOW his mind, will and emotions (soul) have been healed by the blood? But not his physical body. If he wants to settle for that, then that's his call.

maybe you can tell him that since his soul has prospered he might wanna look at this:

"Beloved I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospers." when you prosper inwardly, the outward should follow along.

I've a good friend who has celebral palsy too. He's not really interested in healing and believes it's God's will for him to be like that, so he remains the way he is. I'm still ministering to him by giving tapes and sermons on healing, but it's really up to him to believe, I cant do the believing for him.

 

[LouisBooth]

"If he wants to settle for that, then that's his call. "

*sigh* but he isn't settling. that's the point he realized what REAL heaing is all about.

Andrew you seemed to miss the point of the story. Did you miss the part where, "He believed that" healing didn't happen because God didn't want it to happen.

 

[Andrew]

"that's the point he realized what REAL heaing is all about."

Wow, so Jesus and the apostles did a lot of FAKE healings when they healed physical ailments. Hmmm...opening blind eyes, the lame walking, raising the dead --- these are not "REAL" healings. Jesus sure didnt know what REAL healing was all about.

"Did you miss the part where, "He believed that" healing didn't happen because God didn't want it to happen."

He'd believe right if he had substituted "God" there with "Satan" becos Satan made him that way and wants him to stay that way. so he's believing wrongly, and if he wants to believe that way, then it's his choice.

 

[LouisBooth]

"Wow, so Jesus and the apostles did a lot of FAKE healings when they healed physical ailments. "

Ahh..taking my words out of context, good job andrew.

Like I always say, God is more concerned about your spiritual condition then your physical one, this story is yet another example of that.

Ahh so now, you andrew, are saying he didn't have enough faith? What are you joking? That is a terrible thing to say.

 

[Andrew]

"Like I always say, God is more concerned about your spiritual condition then your physical one,"

agreed, if you are talking about salvation for sin/hell first.

"... this story is yet another example of that."

nope the purpose of this story is to prove that God doesnt care about the physical part. This guy believes God doesnt want him healed, that God is glorified by his sick condition, which is totally unscriptural and absurd.

When it comes to who knows what real healing is all about, I'm not blind, I'll take the example of the Master healer, not a person who's in a wheelchair. Imagine a person preaching on healing from a wheelchair *LOL

"Ahh so now, you andrew, are saying he didn't have enough faith? What are you joking? That is a terrible thing to say."

ahh there you go again abt your faith thing -- Yes of course he doesnt have faith for healing -- Let GOd be true and every man a liar!

I dont think you'll be joking if you were in his shoes. Terrible thing to say? Sometimes the truth hurts.

Which is more terrible to say, that man lacks faith for healing or that God is a child abuser and killer? That's why I'd say it again, Louis, you are preaching another Jesus.

 

[LouisBooth]

"agreed, if you are talking about salvation for sin/hell first."

Nope, we are talking about everything. Like he says, store up treasures in heaven, not earth. He is more concerned about your spiritual condition.

"This guy believes God doesnt want him healed, that God is glorified by his sick condition, which is totally unscriptural and absurd"

YOu didn't read the whole story Andrew.

"Imagine a person preaching on healing from a wheelchair *LOL"

*sigh* its thoughts like that that make God cry andrew. That man is healing more then you will ever know.

"Yes of course he doesnt have faith for healing "

You're unbiblical in that statement. You're judging someone's faith.

"That's why I'd say it again, Louis, you are preaching another Jesus."

I'll pray for you andrew, you need it. I preach of God's love and his concern for things that matter, not things of this world and of this flesh that will one day passaway.

 

[Andrew]

"I preach of God's love and his concern for things that matter,"

well as long as it's scriptural, but its not.

You preach a "Jesus" who was sick and poor.
You preach a god who puts sickness and deaths on his children.
You preach a god that wants some of his children to stay sick.
You preach a stingy god who is only concerned about spiritual things.

You call that preaching god's love! who are you kidding!

 

[LouisBooth]

I preach a God that loves you enough to let you learn for yourself. I preach a God that loves you enough to be concerned about spiritual matters more then physical ones. I preach about a christ that came to experience EXACTLY the trials that we go through, and come out sinless. Being sick is a trial, one that I'm sure if he want through he came out sinless. As far as material wealth goes, yes, christ could have been and probalby was poor. the guy worked for a living. He walked everywhere he went. He had no "place to rest his head". He wore simple garments. If you think about it, did people in those days take daily baths? maybe once a week. Christ was in REAL flesh, he wasn't a perfect physical specimine, or he would have been 6'4 blonde hair, blue eyes, amazing pecks and bicepts and cold bench 250. None of which he was. He was probably orinary in appearance, and extraordinary by nature. Why? Because its the spiritual that matters, not the physical.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Hey Andrew,

1. when is the last time you were sick ? (head ache, upset stomach, a common cold, etc?)

2. how is my unused properity that you claimed? If you are low, I have some extra I didn't use this week.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
This guy believes God doesnt want him healed, that God is glorified by his sick condition, which is totally unscriptural and absurd.

If anything is absurd, it is the comment I just quoted.

If you say that God cannot be glorified by a man who's current condition includes cerebral palsy, then you got some issues bro. Your faith is severely weak if you believe that. Who are you to limit God? Eric does a good service to the people at my church, he is a HUGE inspiration. We had another guy come to our church to talk to our youth. He has cerebral palsy as well, except he cannot talk or walk. He constantly rocks back and forth, unable to sit still. The man types with his toes. He is extremely intelligent and he travels teaching young people about God. If you say that God cannot be glorified through that, then you need some help Andrew, big help... I am being completely serious.

 

[covenant914]

Sorry, did not read all 95 posts(theses?), but I read somewhere, perhaps tounge in cheek, that Paul was gay. Which, supposedly, explained his problem with women.

Not that I believe he had a problem with women.

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by covenant914
Sorry, did not read all 95 posts(theses?), but I read somewhere, perhaps tounge in cheek, that Paul was gay. Which, supposedly, explained his problem with women.

Not that I believe he had a problem with women.

I will be the first to say that this is the least likely scenario.

 

[Andrew]

"Hey Andrew, 1. when is the last time you were sick ? (head ache, upset stomach, a common cold, etc?)"

Well let's see. that wld be some 8 mths ago. I take medical leave only about 1-2 days in a year. i'd say that's pretty good compared to many colleagues. common cold? hardly ever, goes around but bypasses me. upset stomach? hardly, just say grace. even if I do get these, no need to see doc, just claim healing, cont going to work. headaches? well the occasional work stress related ones. but just rest a little more n its gone. oh just had my medical reviews n in the words of the doc "You are very healthy". -- all 55+ chemicals in the right range values. well not quite there yet but on the right track -- all by God's grace. how abt you?

"2. how is my unused properity that you claimed? If you are low, I have some extra I didn't use this week."

oh I won $150 recently for good work done. do tell God to pass such things to me if you dont want them.

"If you say that God cannot be glorified through that, then you need some help Andrew, big help... I am being completely serious."

get the facts right Dave. I said God is not glorified in a man's sickness. Check post 91 again. I do not doubt that this man can still serve God, but in a limited way (that's obvious). But which person with any common sense wld look at a crippled man and say GLORY TO GOD! I WANT JESUS TOO! Only a lunatic wld say that.

As I've said b4, its not a sin to be sick, but its a sin to say God made you that way and that he wants you to stay that way and that you somehow glorify him by being sick!

 

[DaveKerwin]

Originally posted by Andrew
"Hey Andrew, 1. when is the last time you were sick ? (head ache, upset stomach, a common cold, etc?)"

Well let's see. that wld be some 8 mths ago. I take medical leave only about 1-2 days in a year. i'd say that's pretty good compared to many colleagues. common cold? hardly ever, goes around but bypasses me. upset stomach? hardly, just say grace. even if I do get these, no need to see doc, just claim healing, cont going to work. headaches? well the occasional work stress related ones. but just rest a little more n its gone. oh just had my medical reviews n in the words of the doc "You are very healthy". -- all 55+ chemicals in the right range values. well not quite there yet but on the right track -- all by God's grace. how abt you?

"2. how is my unused properity that you claimed? If you are low, I have some extra I didn't use this week."

oh I won $150 recently for good work done. do tell God to pass such things to me if you dont want them.

"If you say that God cannot be glorified through that, then you need some help Andrew, big help... I am being completely serious."

get the facts right Dave. I said God is not glorified in a man's sickness. Check post 91 again. I do not doubt that this man can still serve God, but in a limited way (that's obvious). But which person with any common sense wld look at a crippled man and say GLORY TO GOD! I WANT JESUS TOO! Only a lunatic wld say that.

As I've said b4, its not a sin to be sick, but its a sin to say God made you that way and that he wants you to stay that way and that you somehow glorify him by being sick!

I have not been sick much at all. I get an occasional upset stomach from eating food that I should have avoided, but that passes on its own, no pun intended. I have a headache once in a while. Those pass by quickly too. Instead of claiming healing, I just let my body do its job, and it always does. Occasionally I will take an advil if I am somewhere that I really need to focus. Also, taking a nap gets rid of headaches, I am always up for a nap.

150 huh, not bad. Glad to hear it has not gone wasted.

I believe God can be glorified through a man's sickness the same way he can be glorfied by any of man's weaknesses. There is a certain kind of man who can look at a crippled christian and say Glory to God. There is a certain kind of man that can look at a crippled christian and say, I want the Jesus that this man has. It's called a humble man, a man with the heart of God!