Was never really a Christian

briareos · Mar 21, 2012

Joey,

Let me say that I appreciate your views and I understand them, and it would be rude and unfair for me to act like you have no reason behind your thoughts.

What do you think of Galatians 5? What do you think those verses are saying?

It would be more polite and more reasonable and productive for us to not so much challenge each other but ask each other to tell what we think of certain verses. As long as we simply trade scriptures, we largely ignore content and fail to consider much.

homeofmew · Mar 21, 2012

I believe this phrase is an excuse for having certain people not really saved.
It's possible to be saved and then change faiths.

The reason I say this is because I knew some people (middle age people)
who were Christians for 25 years then changed to Buddhism

chaoticfirefly · Mar 21, 2012

They both were Christians, but one just started to fall away and lose faith. That doesn't make anybody less of a Christian. It happens.

blackstrawberry · Mar 21, 2012

briareos said:
Well none of those verses actually say that you cannot become unsaved, they say that you cannot be snatched away from God, that nothing changes his love for you, and that once your saved your changed, etc.

The entire book of Galatians proves that it is possible to at one point be saved but possibly end up not saved at all because he's talking to the church who he said had once ran very well but because that church was returning to the Law and not abiding in grace that Christ would no longer be of any profit to them at all.

Hebrews 6.4-6
For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

God will never stop loving us, but we can stop loving God and we can depart from God. I am not debating and I am not going to debate, but many people have good reasons to believe that apostasy is possible, it is not a frailness of salvation or a weakness of God's saving grace, it's the possibility of turning your back on God and leaving him. It is not possible for our trust in God to be failed, as long as we seek him he will take care of us, but it's possible to cease to want him and it is possible to leave him and fall away and as Hebrew 6 says, it's possible to never come back, not because God changed his mind about you but because you just wont repent.

Let's not distort what the Bible is telling us.

razeontherock · Mar 21, 2012

briareos said:
There is plenty of scripture to lead many people to believe that it is possible to fall away from God.

St Paul was one such person

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

homeofmew · Mar 21, 2012

blackstrawberry said:
Let's not distort what the Bible is telling us.

I still think it is possible for someone to be saved ans walk away form Christianity especially if they were abused by people in the faith (who aren't actually Christians)

But yes if you are in a setting where people are suppose to act how they are suppose to it's harder to leave Christianity.

One of the biggest issues I see people struggling with Christianity is "how am i suppose to accept that X is going to hell/or is in hell?"

"Heavens Not Heaven without Pokemon" - homeofmew.

So I mean what is heaen where all our loved ones are? How can we be happy? I heard the "God is going to make us forget" thing but that's not even ethical. (As pointed out in Pokemon, Mewtwo Returns) forgetting does us no good.

blackstrawberry · Mar 21, 2012

homeofmew said:
I still think it is possible for someone to be saved ans walk away form Christianity especially if they were abused by people in the faith (who aren't actually Christians)

But yes if you are in a setting where people are suppose to act how they are suppose to it's harder to leave Christianity.

One of the biggest issues I see people struggling with Christianity is "how am i suppose to accept that X is going to hell/or is in hell?"

"Heavens Not Heaven without Pokemon" - homeofmew.

So I mean what is heaen where all our loved ones are? How can we be happy? I heard the "God is going to make us forget" thing but that's not even ethical. (As pointed out in Pokemon, Mewtwo Returns) forgetting does us no good.

Just to give you a heads up, this post may be my last post on the thread for the day.

Our entire logic had been formatted in the favor of Satan, who is the god of this age. With his status as the prince of the air, the fallen angel lures us into temptation while he himself is enjoying the view in the outer space, via the second heaven. If we were to be with God right now, then it would seem weird to us for anyone to think that God's playing an unfair game and is imposing His rules that are only beneficial to Himself. Satan may ask, "If my beauty is what had corrupted me and my perfectness is the factor which had corrupted myself, then why did you create me in the first place, God? Doesn't this tell you that you had intentionally created Satan?" That's a perspective based on a faulty logic, however. God created Lucifer, yes, but if had he obeyed and chose to follow God without any corruption to his ends, his award would've been immense. Lucifer's choice had led to Satan's condemnation. Like the ex-Lucifer of the past, we, men, have our own choices to make. "Whether or not and regardless of such and such things," speech will not make any difference in the eyes of God. If you persevere and overcome the hurdles in your life, your award will be much more than those who have had lived what you might call, an "easy" life. Just hearing about God and attending your local church services at a regular pace does not make you a Christian. One may accept Jesus Christ to be his only Lord and Savior at the last minute of his life and be saved. If the Holy Spirit had entered your heart, then you'd see changes in your lives and you won't be making excuses such as: "Well, I'd like to live a life that's somewhat meaningful in the eyes of God, yes. It's just that my peers aren't cooperative to my suggestions, so.....yeah..." God is and should be the only audience of your life. He is the One who guides and feeds you.

briareos · Mar 21, 2012

blackstrawberry said:
Let's not distort what the Bible is telling us.

Absolutely not.

briareos · Mar 21, 2012

razeontherock said:
St Paul was one such person

1Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

yep

brinny · Mar 21, 2012

Philis said:
In a thread I just read the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was mentioned. In the thread it mainly had to do with changing faiths.

Example:
"If you really are a Christian you would never turn away from the Holy Spirit."
"But that person over there changed faiths."
"Then they weren't really a Christian."

I have a question for anyone who thinks that way.

Lets say we have two guys. They both grow up in Christian families and accept the Lord at a young age. They both share Jesus with their friends and then as youth they rededicate their lives, go into street ministry, and eventually go on some missions trips.

They both attend seminary and become pastors, get married and have kids.

Now, 10 years into their ministry their lives become quite different. One continues on being a pastor and a strong Christian till the day he dies. The other interprets things around him differently and instead leaves his Christian faith, never to return to it.

The question is, if the guy who left his faith was "never really a Christian", then what does it mean to "be a Christian"? What was his life missing that would have made him a "real Christian"?

You don't know what it means to be a Christian? You are a Christian, are you not?

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." ~Matthew 7:21

We are also admonished to:

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" ~II Corinthians 13:5

and:

"And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." ~Luke 9:62

briareos · Mar 21, 2012

homeofmew said:
I still think it is possible for someone to be saved ans walk away form Christianity especially if they were abused by people in the faith (who aren't actually Christians)

But yes if you are in a setting where people are suppose to act how they are suppose to it's harder to leave Christianity.

One of the biggest issues I see people struggling with Christianity is "how am i suppose to accept that X is going to hell/or is in hell?"

"Heavens Not Heaven without Pokemon" - homeofmew.

So I mean what is heaen where all our loved ones are? How can we be happy? I heard the "God is going to make us forget" thing but that's not even ethical. (As pointed out in Pokemon, Mewtwo Returns) forgetting does us no good.

The very simple matter is that it is possible for people to choose to leave God, it is possible for people to choose trust in something else other than Jesus and grace and in such a case... if those people refuse to return to Jesus, Jesus' love for them cannot save them because they refuse to repent.

If you reject Jesus he can't save you, the same goes for people who once knew him.

Paul was talking to Christians

Galatians 3.27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

and he was telling them that if they did not hearken to him, Christ could not save them

Galatians 5.1-7
With freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace... Ye were running well; who hindered you that ye should not obey the truth?

There is no lack of saving grace in Christ, but it is possible for saved people to leave God and not allow God the chance to save them.

Theofane · Mar 21, 2012

zeener said:
One doesn't have to identify as "Christian" to be saved, but most do.

If one considers himself saved by the blood of Jesus, would he not identify as Christian?

Hospes · Mar 22, 2012

I find it hard to understand how I do not have ground for boasting in my own salvation if it is I who made the decisive step to become a Christian and it is in my power to be the decisive agent in staying a Christian.

For this reason, and others, I believe it was God alone that saved me and him alone that will keep me. Furthermore, I find great comfort in knowing that it is not I who must have the power to not fall away; I am much too prone to sin to trust myself with such a task.

JoeyArnold · Mar 22, 2012

Salvation is an out of this world transaction which means that the variables of this world doesn't effect it or even come close to even touching the elements of the eternal estate & condition of a new identity & resident & inheritance & purpose & security & calling & heart.

SamsoniteBaggage · Mar 22, 2012

Philis said:
In a thread I just read the "no true Scotsman" fallacy was mentioned. In the thread it mainly had to do with changing faiths.

Example:
"If you really are a Christian you would never turn away from the Holy Spirit."
"But that person over there changed faiths."
"Then they weren't really a Christian."

I have a question for anyone who thinks that way.

Lets say we have two guys. They both grow up in Christian families and accept the Lord at a young age. They both share Jesus with their friends and then as youth they rededicate their lives, go into street ministry, and eventually go on some missions trips.

They both attend seminary and become pastors, get married and have kids.

Now, 10 years into their ministry their lives become quite different. One continues on being a pastor and a strong Christian till the day he dies. The other interprets things around him differently and instead leaves his Christian faith, never to return to it.

The question is, if the guy who left his faith was "never really a Christian", then what does it mean to "be a Christian"? What was his life missing that would have made him a "real Christian"?

I think your guys had a lot to teach Jesus,

Jesus, instead of being a carpenter, go to Pharisee school...

And we can argue about angels on the heads of pins...

Honestly, I think had Jesus said "go be a Pharisee", then, yeah, the whole seminary and celibacy thing would have been in there. Only, they killed Jesus, so... uhm....?

Not to be stupid... ROFL...???

homeofmew · Mar 22, 2012

briareos said:
The very simple matter is that it is possible for people to choose to leave God, it is possible for people to choose trust in something else other than Jesus and grace and in such a case... if those people refuse to return to Jesus, Jesus' love for them cannot save them because they refuse to repent.

If you reject Jesus he can't save you, the same goes for people who once knew him.

Paul was talking to Christians

Galatians 3.27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

and he was telling them that if they did not hearken to him, Christ could not save them

Galatians 5.1-7
With freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace... Ye were running well; who hindered you that ye should not obey the truth?

There is no lack of saving grace in Christ, but it is possible for saved people to leave God and not allow God the chance to save them.

Shrug isn't "chaining beliefs" just another sin, why is that sin unforgivable and everything else forgivable?

I can see "not choosing God to save you" as the ultimate sin.
But "once saved always saved"

In this day in age Leaving the "Church" and Leaving "God" are two different things. This I understand and one of the reasons I am a Christian.

But yeah for normal people who don't find this there's a lot of reasons not to be a "Christian" or even associated with them, there's so many people that do it wrong. They judge you, they nag at you, bully you, and say X movie is evil.
I use the term Born Again Christian because I don't want to be the mainstream "Christian" losers.

parsley · Mar 22, 2012

Salvation is an choice to accept an invitation. It is not based on our merits. The offer from God still stands firm and unwavering, century after century, and is open to all. That means the salvation offer is never lost -- it is our choice that wavers.

Living for the kingdom is another thing -- a person can say yes to the offer, but then live for themself. As said above, God sees all. He does not take this lightly, but continues to work with them and those around them. God does not stop working in a person's life when they walk away from His principles.

If a person continues in self-reliance and opposition to His ways, they eventually let go of that offer and imagine they can save themselves. We all tend in that direction, and need to keep ourselves humble and reliant on Him. In that case, it is not a retraction of the offer from the donor, but a decline from the recipient.

child0fg0d88 · Mar 22, 2012

Theofane said:
If one considers himself saved by the blood of Jesus, would he not identify as Christian?

I think this person is referring to labeling himself as something. But we do need to know what the word Christian means, which is Greek for follower of Christ.

OP- Like many have said on here, God will never turn our backs on us. But the question is, "can a true believer turn their back on God."

There is much scripture that supports both views. Let's quit looking at this with just scripture and instead try to meditate on this scenario:

You are in love with your spouse/significant other/bf or gf/whatever. You two are having the time of your life together. You love each other more than you can describe. Over time, you quit doing fun things together, you have gotten in fights and have grown bitter. There is no longer love because you chose not to persevere through the hard times and instead chose to take the easy path and not try and push through it. You fell out of love.

Like a relationship with another human, we can let our relationship with God die if we let it, if we don't persevere through the hard times and put HIM before ourselves then we are turning our backs on Him. However, like a relationship with a person, if we put forth efforts and push through the hard times the reward will be greater, and the relationship will be stronger than it ever was.

Yes, we can have genuine love for God and truly be in His grace, but we can choose to turn our backs on Him. All we have to do is turn around and He will be right there waiting for us.

briareos · Mar 22, 2012

homeofmew said:
Shrug isn't "chaining beliefs" just another sin, why is that sin unforgivable and everything else forgivable?

I can see "not choosing God to save you" as the ultimate sin.
But "once saved always saved"

In this day in age Leaving the "Church" and Leaving "God" are two different things. This I understand and one of the reasons I am a Christian.

But yeah for normal people who don't find this there's a lot of reasons not to be a "Christian" or even associated with them, there's so many people that do it wrong. They judge you, they nag at you, bully you, and say X movie is evil.
I use the term Born Again Christian because I don't want to be the mainstream "Christian" losers.

Well I didn't mention anything being unforgivable I said God can't save them, not because he can't forgive it, but because they won't return. I don't believe any sin is unforgivable, I believe people refuse to be forgiven which makes them not forgivable. (in this case, the christian who leaves God and won't return) thats what Hebrews 6 is talking about. People who can't be convinced to return.

someguy14 · Mar 22, 2012

Perhaps this can shed some light and help explain it better.

2 Peter 2

2 Peter 2:15
Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Those that fall away, prefer the ways of unrighteousness, those that prefer the reward of unrighteousness. Such as maliciousness, for example. They rejoice in iniquity, instead of truth.
God is very merciful and loving towards all. God bless.

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