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The Orthodox Churches teach that she was made pure and whole (the stain of Adam's removed) when Christ entered her womb, and that she was born just like the rest of us.
That, in a nutshell is the difference between the beliefs of The Church of Rome and the other Churches concerning Mary's sinlessness.
Forgive me...
I'm aware of that but I don't think IAA is. I think she was pinning her hopes of proving since 300 AD the sinlessness of Mary was in dispute because the IC doctrine is what was in dispute.The Orthodox Churches teach that she was made pure and whole (the stain of Adam's removed) when Christ entered her womb, and that she was born just like the rest of us.
That, in a nutshell is the difference between the beliefs of The Church of Rome and the other Churches concerning Mary's sinlessness.
Forgive me...
yes I know but this has little to with all of Christendom who never doubted her sinlessness. if you think they did, then cite them please.I stated that this dogma that you all follow was not even brought around until the 5th century.. By Pope Pius and He didn't even have the council on it He just stated it and said that anyone who went against this teaching was athema...
The Church says it's okay to speculate that she may not have died in the same way you and I will. We call this her dormition.I don't think sinless people die. All of mankind are going to die, unless your the ones who are in the Rapture.....they will be changed into incorruptible.
Also , why do not the early - ECF's not talk about Mary being bodily resurrected? They talk about Jesus being bodily resurrected, and the bodily resurrection of humans THAT IS TO COME, not not once do they talk about Mary's bodily resurrection, that would have really been something to mention, ya know.
Bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin MaryAlso , why do not the early - ECF's not talk about Mary being bodily resurrected? They talk about Jesus being bodily resurrected, and the bodily resurrection of humans THAT IS TO COME, not not once do they talk about Mary's bodily resurrection, that would have really been something to mention, ya know.
"If the Holy Virgin had died and was buried, her falling asleep would have been surrounded with honour, death would have found her pure, and her crown would have been a virginal one...Had she been martyred according to what is written: 'Thine own soul a sword shall pierce', then she would shine gloriously among the martyrs, and her holy body would have been declared blessed; for by her, did light come to the world."
Epiphanius,Panarion,78:23(A.D. 377),in PG 42:737
"[T]he Apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb; and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; and the holy body having been received, He commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise: where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary] rejoices with the Lord's chosen ones..."
Gregory of Tours, Eight Books of Miracles,1:4(inter A.D. 575-593),in JUR,III:306
"As the most glorious Mother of Christ,our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him."
Modestus of Jerusalem,Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae(PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634) from Munificentis simus Deus
"It was fitting ... that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory ... should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God."
Theoteknos of Livias,Homily on the Assumption(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,57
"You are she who, as it is written, appears in beauty, and your virginal body is all holy, all chaste, entirely the dewlling place of God, so that it is henceforth completely exempt from dissoultion into dust. Though still human, it is changed into the heavenly life of incorruptibility, truly living and glorious, undamaged and sharing in perfect life."
Germanus of Constantinople,Sermon I(PG 98,346),(ante A.D. 733),from Munificentis simus Deus
"It was fitting that the she, who had kept her virginity intact in childbirth, should keep her own body free from all corruption even after death. It was fitting that she, who had carried the Creator as a child at her breast, should dwell in the divine tabernacles. It was fitting that the spouse, whom the Father had taken to himself, should live in the divine mansions. It was fitting that she, who had seen her Son upon the cross and who had thereby received into her heart the sword of sorrow which she had escaped when giving birth to him, should look upon him as he sits with the Father, It was fitting that God's Mother should possess what belongs to her Son, and that she should be honored by every creature as the Mother and as the handmaid of God"
John of Damascene,Dormition of Mary(PG 96,741),(ante A.D. 749) from Munificentis simus Deus
" 'St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven.' "
John of Damascene,PG(96:1)(A.D. 747-751)
"Venerable to us, O Lord, is the festivity of this day on which the holy Mother of God suffered temporal death, but still could not be kept down by the bonds of death, who has begotten Thy Son our Lord incarnate from herself."
Gregorian Sacramentary,Veneranda(ante A.D. 795), from Munificentis simus Deus
"[A]n effable mystery all the more worthy of praise as the Virgin's Assumption is something unique among men."
Gallican Sacramentary, from Munificentis simus Deus
"God, the King of the universe, has granted you favors that surpass nature. As he kept you virgin in childbirth, thus he kept your body incorrupt in the tomb and has glorified it by his divine act of transferring it from the tomb." Byzantine Liturgy, from Munificentis simus Deus
"[T]he virgin is up to now immortal, as He who lived, translated her into the place of reception"
Timotheus of Jerusalem(6th-8th century),in OTT,208
as per standard, nothing prior to AD 300. earliest A.D. 377. typical of marian doctrines!Bodily Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary
yes, noticed that afterwards.This was not until 575-593, that someone even suggested that Mary was resurrected uncorruptible, the first one there does not say a thing about it.
And Scripture does point out that Jesus was sinless. There is precedent there in that it was clearly pointed out that he was. I guess it seemed note worthy.What about innocent children who die before they have sinned? What about Christ...wasn't He without sin?
What about innocent children who die before they have sinned? What about Christ...wasn't He without sin?
Thank you Axion.The verse saying "all have sinned" is normally used out of its context, since it does not appear in scripture with any reference to Mary. Therefore the only way that it can possibly be made to apply to Mary is if the word 'ALL' is an absolute that rules out all possible exceptions. Yet Jesus, the heavenly angels, the newborn, and some in other categories are clear exceptions to Romans 3.23. The key here is that the word 'ALL' in this verse is the Greek word, 'PAS', which can have different meanings to the absolute that we immediately think of - as shown in other verses of Holy Scripture.
John 12:19, "All the world has gone after him!" Did everyone in the entire world really go after Christ?
Mt 3:5-6, "Then went out to Him Jerusalem, and ALL Judea, and ALL the region about the Jordan; and they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins."
Were all of the people of Judea, and the region about the Jordan baptized?
Luke 2:1 "And an order went out from caesar Augustus that ALL the world should be counted."
Was everyone in the whole world counted?
Rom 11:26, "ALL Israel shall be saved." Will everyone in Israel truly be saved?
Rom 15:14, "...you yourselves are full of love, filled with ALL knowledge..." The only person filled with 'ALL' knowledge is God Himself.
The Greek word 'PAS' in many verses in Scripture simply means a 'great number', 'most of', or 'a lot'. So its appearance in the quoted passage can in no way be used as an objection to the sinlessness of the Virgin Mary.
Thank you Axion.
So it really means all have sinned
except some?
Or is it all have sinned except Mary
and Jesus?
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