Was Mary Sinless?

[RandyPNW]

A discussion I had elsewhere on the nature of Sin...

His flesh had sin... Hear me out. The excuse given for why babies get cancer is that we live in a fallen world and the sins of their ancestors were passed down to them. Mary was Jesus flesh and blood Mother and she had to have sinned.... Even if she didn't King David had dude killed to sleep with Bathsheba.

I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

 

[NBB]

I don't think she was sinless, that doesn't exists for 'normal humans'.

 

[Hentenza]

Mary was born with original sin just like every other human except for Christ.

 

[RileyG]

From my perspective, yes!

In Luke 1:28, the Greek word κεχαριτωμένη, meaning full of grace, rather than "highly one" is a perfect passive particle and ongoing. The hymn attributed to Ephraim the Syrian mentions her being "without stain." All the ancient Churches believed she was sinless.

see

mary-without-sin

 

[chevyontheriver]

I don't agree.

Hey, here you and I agree.

Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all.

Yes indeed. No sin at all in Jesus. God can make humans that are sinless. Both human and sinless at the same time.

Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA ...

Of course. But just her DNA would have resulted in a girl, not a boy. So the DNA of Jesus is more complex than just Mary's DNA.

...but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ.

Huh? Joseph (his feast day is today by the way) is a most humble saint who obediently fostered Jesus. I don't think he would ever have taken credit or claimed fathering Jesus was any sort of 'work'. Oh, but could Mary be accused of taking credit for the 'work' of producing Jesus? I have never heard of any of that.

Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

Atonement is by Jesus Christ alone. Mary had a role to play in our salvation, but a derivative role only, much as you and I have tiny auxiliary roles in the salvation of others. One plants the seed, another waters, we all have a tiny part. None of us could do a thing without Jesus. None of us have anything to brag about.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

I would be cautious about saying anything definitive about Mary's DNA or Jesus' DNA beyond that Mary contributed her DNA AND that something other than parthenogenesis occurred so Jesus would be male. Speculation of 'healing' of DNA here is just that - speculation. So too is speculation about the nature of the rest of Jesus' DNA other than to say there was somehow a Y chromosome there and likely a complete chromosome complement. Except not from Joseph.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

Inherited original sin is real, but tying the mechanism of that inheritance to DNA is again a speculation. I'd not be so hasty to go with that mechanism. Better to leave it undefined than to do a WAG.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives.

This is the battle of grace vs concupiescence in classical Catholic theology.

Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

Which is why I would not say we inherit original sin in our DNA. But we nonetheless all inherit it in a way parallel to DNA inheritance.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

I don't like the phrase 'sin nature' but we are all 'bent' and damaged goods. We have a 'human nature', but damaged. Jesus had a human nature as well, an identical but unbent human nature, an Adamic human nature. Our nature is human, could have been Adamic, but is devolved instead.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

Yup.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

To 'partner' with God is a very Catholic way of putting it, but yes, we cooperate with Jesus, not as equal partners, but as toddler siblings with their adult brother.

 

[Blueprints]

To answer the actual OP Question, "Was Mary sinless?" The answer, being echoed from scripture, is "No." I am only amen-ing what is already written, and to argue with me, is to miss the progenitor of the response, namely, God's words as they are written.

Rom_3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;​

Rom_5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:​

Jesus is already excluded from the "all" by the other statements of scripture, and is not the focus of the OP at all, and to discuss Jesus as exclusive to the "all" is simply to move the discussion to another topic entirely, but just so that it is already conceded and a given:

Heb_4:15 For we have not an high priest [ie. Jesus] which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.​

Nowhere, in all of scripture (Gen. to Rev.) is such a statement ever made about any other human being, and especially not Mary, whom has several sins recorded in the NT alone, which is why she needed God's merciful free gift of "grace" to begin with, and to continue with.

As a secondary topic, related, the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh nature of Jesus, that He took upon Himself, scripture is also clear:

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [the flesh of Jesus] --------------------------------------------------------------------------^​

​

Heb_2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.​

Angels have an unfallen flesh nature (1 Cor. 15:38-41; Jud. 1:7; &c.), and Jesus did not take an "unfallen" human flesh nature, but was found in "the likeness of sinful (fallen) flesh", by which the sin in that flesh is forever condemned, since Jesus never sinned in that sinful flesh, having total victory over all of it, and because He did, by the Holy Spirit of God, so too, can fallen mankind, be given a mind born of the Spirit, which can overcome the sinful flesh we live in, by Jesus Christ's example, atonement at Calvary and the work being done in Heaven by Him now.

Mary was of the same sinful (fallen) flesh nature of Abraham and David, as every child of Adam after his fall is as well:

Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,​

​

Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;​

This might be of some help on the differences - Restoration - Restoration by Dennis Priebe : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Flesh & Spirit chart - Flesh And Spirit of Jesus Christ Chart : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

It may also be read here, more clearly:, page 89 - Godhead - The Eternal Heavenly Trio : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Therefore, beware, in kindness, and charity, what "flesh" is denied, and what "flesh" is accepted, for it will alter what Gospel one believes and adheres to.

1Jn_4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.​

​

2Jn_1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.​

John is not speaking about mere humanity (human nature, as opposed to some other kind of creature's nature), but the specific human flesh Jesus took. Read Rom. 8:3 slowly. Prayerfully. Again and again.

If the OP presenter needs a listing of Mary's sins in scripture, that might be gone into later as needful. The OP assumes a general Catholic position in the OP, and assumes the dogmas of "Original Sin", "Immaculate Conception" (of Mary) by reason of the first dogma, and "Impeccability", by reason of the other two, along with several other things mentioned in this reply. I reject all three of those dogmas as unnecessary and unscriptural, along with rejecting an unfallen flesh nature of Jesus, since it would destroy the Gospel of redemption in Christ Jesus at its very root. Again, not to be harsh, but simply speaking theological terms, which affect doctrines, beliefs, practices. Thank you for your consideration.

 

[chevyontheriver]

If the OP presenter needs a listing of Mary's sins in scripture, that might be gone into later as needful.

I’d like to see your list.

 

[mindlight]

A discussion I had elsewhere on the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

The pregnant Mary was full of grace with the sinless Christ inside her. But all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and it would need to be explicity stated to assert that Mary was any different. It never is. That said Mary is never shown to sin either, though it appears she may have made mistakes or errors of understanding.

Luke 2:48–50 - Mary questions Jesus; “they did not understand”
John 2:3–4 - wedding at Cana, some see a mild misunderstanding

We need to protect the human nature of Christ from the inheritance of original sin - he was entirely sinless from conception. The nature of the conception where Mary is uniquely impregnated by a mysterious action of the Holy Spirit eliminates any inheritance of sin at the moment of conception.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

A discussion I had elsewhere on the nature of Sin...


I don't agree. Jesus' flesh and human spirit had no sin at all. Jesus was likely given Mary's DNA but without Joseph's DNA because Joseph would then have taken credit for a "Work" in producing Christ. Flawed Works had to be atoned for and could not produce Eternal Life. Jesus was Eternal Life and was the product of God's Work alone.

DNA can apparently produce defective combinations, but in Mary's case it appears that God "healed" any possible defects in the order of these chemical combinations and the state they were in. The flesh within her imperfect flesh was rendered perfect as far as Christ's being was concerned.

Because human Works are carried on through reproduction, all of mankind, except for Christ, have inherited a Sin Nature and cannot, apart from Christ's Grace, obtain Eternal Life. All of us inherit human DNA as well as a sin-infected human spirituality that disqualifies us from obtaining Eternal Life apart from Christ's Grace.

We all sin, even though through Christ our New Christian Nature may prevail over our Sin impulses--not perfectly but sufficient to show the Nature that we have chosen to reign in our lives. Inheriting human DNA means we inherit flawed Human Flesh. But the Sin is not in the fleshly flaws, eg diseases but rather in the spiritual corruption.

The flesh and the spirit are two separate things. Before we do any Sin we have already been born with a contaminated spiritual nature and will Sin as soon as we are able.

Again, the trial we undergo in life is in proving what Nature we wish to prevail--our New Nature from Christ, which desires to submit to Christ's Righteousness, or our carnal Nature, which wishes to make choices independent of God, even if at times those choices agree with God's choices.

The real battle is in choosing to partner with God *always,* because this proves what Nature we choose to have and to dominate in Eternity. It is not our Sin Nature that condemns us in Eternity. Rather, it is in our choice for Christ, producing a New Nature, or not.

For me, both through philosophical and historical reflection, the question of whether or not Mary was sinless is somewhat similar in nature to that of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" IOW, not every single theological question we think we want to ask in relation to the person of Jesus of Nazareth can actually be answered. But I know, there's been a number of folks over the centuries who have given these kinds of questions a sincere shot.

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't think she was sinless, that doesn't exists for 'normal humans'.

And Romans 3:23 says all have sinned and come SHORT of the glory of God , and is the AORIST TENSE means

it happened in Past time and includes ALL

and ALL. // PAS. in. the NOMINATIVE CASE , means. it. is the person performing. the action

dan p

 

[concretecamper]

Both Scripture and Tradition say that Mary was born free from the Stain of Original sin and was sinless. That's good enough for me.

 

[RandyPNW]

For me, both through philosophical and historical reflection, the question of whether or not Mary was sinless is somewhat similar in nature to that of "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" IOW, not every single theological question we think we want to ask in relation to the person of Jesus of Nazareth can actually be answered. But I know, there's been a number of folks over the centuries who have given these kinds of questions a sincere shot.

We do have to decide if the matter rises to the level of "sound doctrine." When it comes to idolizing a sin-affected human being like Mary, we are dealing with major commandments God gave Israel prohibiting that. Israel was not to worship idols or graven images, nor to render earthly things the equivalent of Deity (unless, of course, we're speaking of His Son).

So, I do think it's a grave danger to exalt Mary to the throne of heaven in any way, although I do recognize that Catholics are not quite making her Divine. I accept Catholics as true Christians, therefore, with an asterisk.

 

[RandyPNW]

The pregnant Mary was full of grace with the sinless Christ inside her. But all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and it would need to be explicity stated to assert that Mary was any different. It never is. That said Mary is never shown to sin either, though it appears she may have made mistakes or errors of understanding.

The Bible does not dwell on Mary's imperfections. But Mary called God her "Savior." I assume that means she saw herself as a sinner in need of justification.
The Bible says, "all have sinned." That would include Mary. So, we don't need examples in the Bible of Mary's sinful flaws--they are not always "Big Sins." When Mary and Joseph were concerned that Jesus stayed behind to engage rabbis in Bible Study they were guilty of slight sin, disrespecting their son's divine authority. But it is understandable, and not a "Big Sin." It is just evidence that we all "see thru a glass darkly."

Luke 2:48–50 - Mary questions Jesus; “they did not understand”
John 2:3–4 - wedding at Cana, some see a mild misunderstanding

We need to protect the human nature of Christ from the inheritance of original sin - he was entirely sinless from conception. The nature of the conception where Mary is uniquely impregnated by a mysterious action of the Holy Spirit eliminates any inheritance of sin at the moment of conception.

Thank you!

 

[Always in His Presence]

No - sinless perfection is an attribute of Divinity - Mary does not have the attributes of God -

 

[chevyontheriver]

No - sinless perfection is an attribute of Divinity - Mary does not have the attributes of God -

Here is a necessary corollary to your statement: Adam, not even for the briefest moment, was sinless.
Here is another corollary: Animals and plants and rocks, being sinless, are divine.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Adam is the head of humanity. When he fell, all human race felled in him. The curse of Adam's sin is that we are all sinners (Romans 5:12 just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned), this includes Mary. As the Bible teaches, sin can only produce sin.

Jesus was not a sinner as He is of divine nature born of the Holy Spirit.

As it is written in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - this includes Mary, that's why she calls Lord her Saviour in Luke 1:47.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Adam is the head of humanity. When he fell, all human race felled in him. The curse of Adam's sin is that we are all sinners (Romans 5:12 just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned), this includes Mary. As the Bible teaches, sin can only produce sin.

Jesus was not a sinner as He is of divine nature born of the Holy Spirit.

As it is written in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - this includes Mary, that's why she calls Lord her Saviour in Luke 1:47.

You say that Jesus was not a sinner as He is of divine nature born of the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that to be sinless that Jesus did NOT have a human nature born of Mary?

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

You say that Jesus was not a sinner as He is of divine nature born of the Holy Spirit. Are you saying that to be sinless that Jesus did NOT have a human nature born of Mary?

Of course Christ has a human nature. The moment He was conceived He had human nature just like us, except without sin.

He felt pain like we do, He was hungry like we are etc. But there was no sin in Him because He is divine, conceived of the Spirit and Mary. Mary didn't need to be sinless for Jesus to be sinless.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Of course Christ has a human nature. The moment He was conceived He had human nature just like us, except without sin.

Just checking. Glad to hear you recognize that Jesus had a divine nature AND a human nature.

He felt pain like we do, He was hungry like we are etc. But there was no sin in Him because He is divine, conceived of the Spirit and Mary.

And yet there was no sin in Adam, at least for a short while. Was there no sin in him too because he was divine? Or how did he manage to be sinless (for at least a short while)? Once we get beyond the idea that to be sinless is to be divine, and idea some people hold to tightly, we can see that God knows how to make sinless humans and that just maybe he did with Mary.

Mary didn't need to be sinless for Jesus to be sinless.

True. God can make sinless beings. And to be divine includes being sinless. Just that being sinless does not include being divine. The Catholic position on this is not that Mary HAD TO BE sinless for Jesus to be sinless. It is that it was FITTING that Mary be sinless. Also that Joseph would be an upright and holy man. Once we get beyond the HAD TO BE fallacy we get a bit closer to understanding the idea of it perhaps being fitting.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As it is written in Romans 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God - this includes Mary, that's why she calls Lord her Saviour in Luke 1:47.

One more thing about the Catholic position on Mary needing a savior. She did. She absolutely needed to be saved as does every other human being. So we fully accept Luke chapter one. It's just that we see it that Mary was saved from falling rather than being saved after falling. Same need to be saved, so Mary was right to speak of her savior.