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Uh... I didn't see any factsjust "logical and rational explanations" that you made up in your own head. But as long as you know you're only speculating. I can live with that
Uh... I didn't see any factsjust "logical and rational explanations" that you made up in your own head. But as long as you know you're only speculating. I can live with that
Lucifer's downfall was PRIDE as it is at the heart of our rebellion also. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that said that Lucifer was privy to some chink in God's power. For God is even His name tells us that He is: YHWH I am that I am, he told Moses to tell the children of Israel was His name. The All sufficient One. He is not dependent upon anyone.
Bick I was just thinking of the scripture where it says that even angels are looking at what the Father has been doing in man. So could it be that in order for God to show His abounding love that all of this had to happen even for the angels to understand his love.
Just a thought.
You could say that what I am suggesting is simply theoretical and that I have no proof to "prove" my assumptions and you would be correct. However you cannot "disprove" my suggestions. Likewise all christianity is based upon "belief" not "proof" there is no empirical "proof" of god's existence nor that the bible is based upon facts. Those are our "beliefs" but we cannot honestly hold them out as actual facts to the point of suggesting that we can "prove" them in factual terms. So therefore my suggestions are atleast as sounds as your objections to them.
I agree that God is most powerful and Satan a very intelligent and called O Morning Star. This Morning Star seems to be God's plan to deceive nation?
The way I read it here, seems to make my mind assume that God planned it all from the start to get His morning star to be evil eventually, and destroy him with the evil followers as a plan for mankind, right from wrong.
But why destroy mankind and His very own creation in order to Save or redeem the work of His hands? The very same creation He created, is being destroyed because of that plan, and some saved.
Please pour in my mind some provoking thoughts cause this question is a debate with a colleague of mine who asked this question. I still can't get it clear to her. She seems to question the mind of God...phew.... which I can never comprehend, of course.
Oh my friend there are many many many proof's creation alone declares the glory of God and the most important proof is a transformed life.
Creation alone does nothing but declare its existence and does not prove nor disprove the existence of a creator god. Even if you believe that that existence proves some sort of creator, which creator? All religions that I am aware of have some creation story associated with them. The fact that you look at creation and from that arive at the conclusion that "creation alone declare the glory of god" does not prove which god? What about the literally thousands of creation stories and the creator gods associated with them, surely simply looking at creation does not prove the existence of the Judeo-Christian god over all others..lol. As for the "most important proof" being "a transformed life", I know athiest who have literally changed their lives for the better. They have rid their lives of drug addictions, gambeling addictions, left relationships where they were taken advantage of and were abused, found hope where there was previously none and built better lives and left their self distructive old lives behind them forever. So simply saying ones life is better and "transformed" is still not "proof". To date I have yet to see anyone (myself included) who has been able to present "empirical evidence" to substaniate the claim of the existence of any god. That does not mean that god cannot exist it simply means we can not "prove" nor "disporve" his existence, at least not in the present.
When the light of truth comes upon a man and He applies that to His heart through the power of the Holy Spirit a transformation comes that is undeniable. There is a big difference between mere 'belief' and faith, for the Word of God says that even the devils believe, so belief is not the only thing that is needed to know God. Knowing God is another proof as the Holy Spirit confirms It's self to our spirit and then you can add mercy to that faith. For faith is not just a belief. Faith is action also.
I do know that the man I once was, is not the man I am today and the reason for the change is the power of the cross of calvary and all that it entails.
I have read similar things written by Muslims and members of many different faiths. Again this would not be empirical proof, it still comes under the heading of "belief" regardless of what you may call it. So we may "believe" but unless you suggest that all "true" believers have had some sort of physical encounter than I would suggest that most if not all believers today base their faith in "belief" rather than "knowledge". St. John "knew" god and had a different kind of faith than you or I would have since it is not possible for us to have actually met Christ in the flesh. St. John had "empirical evidence" ( or at least a great deal closer to it than we have ) of Christ and who he actually was since he knew him on earth and witnessed the miricles he preformed during his ministry on earth. NONE of us have that sort of advantage today. Therefore or faith is based upon our "belief" not our factual knowledge of Christ person.
Yes he does, as do all the Angels. He chose to try to become God. Hence him ending up booted out of heaven, along with 1/3 of his angels (demons) that followed him. Archangel Michael fought Lucifer, and was able to convince the remaining angels of being obedient to God and not falling as Lucifer and the others did.Were angels created with freewill? The choice to obey or not to obey like us mankind?
In what state was Satan created? Was he given freewill to choose to obey or not to obey God? The reasoning of right from wrong?
I am just thinking how did Satan ever think of disobeying God if he did not know what was sin. Did he know right from wrong?
From the information on Archangel Michael I've watched in one of the series of Orthodox videos and from the Ultimate Things book on the End Times, there are parts, obviously that talk about Lucifer, but nothing in the least bit implies that Lucifer had some inside knowledge or found some weakness in God. God doesn't have weakness if you ask me.Does anyone know of any written works modern or ancient that deal with this topic? Has anyone ever explored the posibility Lucifers having found a weakness or vuneralbility in god's otherwise "perfect" existence? I am curious and would love to explore this topic more fully and do research.
Yes he does, as do all the Angels. He chose to try to become God. Hence him ending up booted out of heaven, along with 1/3 of his angels (demons) that followed him. Archangel Michael fought Lucifer, and was able to convince the remaining angels of being obedient to God and not falling as Lucifer and the others did.
Yes he does, as do all the Angels. He chose to try to become God. Hence him ending up booted out of heaven, along with 1/3 of his angels (demons) that followed him. Archangel Michael fought Lucifer, and was able to convince the remaining angels of being obedient to God and not falling as Lucifer and the others did.
Hi Max,
I don't know if "convince" was the right word....making it sound as if the other angels were tempted to go with Lucifer. There was much spiritual fighting in heaven at that time which is something quite hard to imagine for us. Those fighting with Archangel Michael obviously were fighting along side him because they chose to do so and be loyal to God. that is all but the 1/3 that left with Lucifer. It's just interesting that Michael (the less in rank of the angels) became the lead in fighting for God against Lucifer. But then again, God seems to choose the meek and small throughout his creation of humans, so why would this be too surprising.
Anyway, here's some info I found on the angels and Lucifer I found interesting and decided to share here:
At the dawn of creation, before God made the visible world, but after the creation of the angels, there was a great catastrophe, of which we have knowledge only by its consequences. A group of angels opposed itself to God and fell away from Him, thereby becoming enemies of all that was good and holy. At the head of this rebellion stood Lucifer, whose very name (literally meaning light-bearing) indicates that originally he was good. By his own will he changed from his natural state into one which was unnatural; he opposed himself to God and fell away from good into evil. Lucifer, also called the devil (Greek diabolos divider, separator, slanderer), belonged to one of the highest ranks in the angelic hierarchy. Together with him other angels also defected, as the Book of Revelation tells us metaphorically: And a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch... and a third of the stars was struck, so that a third of their light was darkened (Rev.8:10, 12). Some commentators therefore say that along with the morning star a third of the angels fell away.
By exercising their own free will the devil and his demons found themselves in darkness. Every reasonable living creature, whether angel or human being, possesses free will: the right to choose between good and evil. Free will is the property of everyone so that we can, by practicing good, become an ontological part of that good. In other words, goodness was never meant to be granted externally to us but must become our very own possession. If God imposed goodness as a necessity or an inevitability, then no one could ever become a perfectly free person. Nobody has ever become good by force, says St Symeon the New Theologian. Through unceasing growth in virtue the angels were meant to ascend to the plenitude of perfection, to the point of utter assimilation to the God of supreme goodness. Yet some of them chose to reject God and thereby sealed their own fate and the fate of the universe, which from that moment onwards became an arena for two contending polar (yet not equal) principles and powers: the Divine and the demonic, God and the devil.
The problem of the origin of evil has always been a challenge for Christian theology as it has often had to contend with overt or hidden manifestations of dualism. According to some dualistic sects, the entirety of being is made up of two realms which have forever existed together: the kingdom of light filled with many good aeons (angels), and the kingdom of darkness, filled with evil aeons (demons). Spiritual reality is subject to the god of light, while the god of darkness (Satan) has unlimited dominion over the material world. Matter itself is a sinful and evil entity: the humans should by all means possible mortify their bodies in order to be liberated from matter and return to the non-material world of good.
Christian theology viewed the nature and origin of evil differently. Evil is not a primeval essence that is coeternal and equal to God; it is a falling away from good, it is a revolt against good. In this sense it would be wrong to call evil a substance, as it does not exist in its own right. As darkness or shadow are not independent beings but are simply the absence or lack of light, so evil is merely the absence of good. Evil, writes St Basil the Great, is not a living and animated substance, but a condition of the soul which is opposed to virtue and which springs up in the slothful because of their falling away from Good. Do not, therefore, contemplate evil from without; and do not imagine some original nature of wickedness, but let each one recognize himself as the first author of the vice that is in him.
God did not create anything evil: both angels and humans, as well as the material world, are good and beautiful by nature. However, rational creatures, possessing free will, can direct their freedom against God and thereby engender evil. This is precisely what happened: the light-bearing morning star (Lucifer), originally created good, abused his freedom, defaced his own virtuous nature and fell away from the Source of goodness.
An Online Orthodox Catechism » Catechism » OrthodoxEurope.org
First let me congratulate you on one of the best written explanations of this subject I have seen, especially here on CF.
A lot of what you have written I agree with completely. I agree for example that there is no proof god created evil nor that Lucifer was origionally inteded to be evil, quite the opposite is true as you have pointed out.
A new question has come about in my mind also. Was Lucifer the first/only rebellion in heaven or among the angles or have there been successive wars of this nature over course of eternity? I know that this one is the only one we know of, but if there was one why not a second or earlier such conflict?
Also I have heard that there is debate over the question of Lucifer and Satan being the same. I have been told by some that they believe them to be seperate beings Lucifer being the senior angle in heaven who lead the rebellion against god in order to seize the throne in heaven and Satan "the accusser" they seem to me to be seperate persons. Have you heard of this before?
The reason I used the word "convince" is that surely more were tempted than actually joined Lucifers side. Also this brings up the question of what type of contest actually occured in heaven? Was it an acctual war as we thnk of it? Were there casualties? Was there physical distruction of property? How close did Lucifer actually come to achieving his victory? What prevented his victory, was it an actual significant engagement like D-Day, Waterloo or Gettysburg? What was the nature of the "War"? I am not sure anyone really knows but the question is intriqing.
As for the meaning of Lucifer's name (light bearer). It could have additional meaning aside from saying he was created "good". Light has always been used in literature to indicate knowledge. What if Lucifer was a "knowledge bearer"? What if the light he shinned was not physical light but the light of knowledge? What knowledge might he have had? Knowledge of god or more approperiately god's vunerability? The secerts known only to god himself? The translation of that term has a great deal of implication. Do you see what I am saying? Pehaps there is more to his name than we realize?
I enjoy this sort of inquiry and would love to know what you think. Also anyone reading this please fell free to comment and give your oppinions and any source information you may be willing to provide.
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