Was Judas Iscariot saved?

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

See None of them is lost except the son of PERDITION

PloverWing · Aug 27, 2023

Judas did a terrible thing, hence the harsh descriptions of him in the gospel of John. But he did regret it, almost immediately. And we're told that our Lord loves us and goes to search for his lost sheep when we stray off course. I'd say that we do not know Judas' eternal fate, whether Jesus was able to find and rescue this lost sheep.

sandman · Aug 27, 2023

I never make any assumption on ones salvation...unless it is revelation from God.

And seeing as Jesus did forgive him .... It's just not my call

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

PloverWing said:
Judas did a terrible thing, hence the harsh descriptions of him in the gospel of John. But he did regret it, almost immediately. And we're told that our Lord loves us and goes to search for his lost sheep when we stray off course. I'd say that we do not know Judas' eternal fate, whether Jesus was able to find and rescue this lost sheep.

Let proposition P1 = Judas Iscariot will inherit eternal life on the new earth after resurrection.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

sandman said:
And seeing as Jesus did forgive him .... It's just not my call

verse?

sandman · Aug 27, 2023

tonychanyt said:
verse?

You first ....
Show me where he won't have eternal life (under the law since he died shortly after Christ was taken up.)

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

sandman said:
You first ....
Show me where he won't have eternal life (under the law since he died shortly after Christ was taken up.)

Did you read the OP?

sandman · Aug 27, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Did you read the OP?

I did ....You concluded with............ "at one time, but no, not for eternal life".

How were sins forgiven under the Mosaic law ...and for how long? ....and were the sins qualified (excluding the unforgivable, which is not what Judas committed)

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

sandman said:
I did ....You concluded with............ "at one time, but no, not for eternal life".

How were sins forgiven under the Mosaic law ...and for how long? ....and were the sins qualified (excluding the unforgivable, which is not what Judas committed)

Let proposition P1 = Judas Iscariot will inherit eternal life on the new earth after resurrection.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

PloverWing · Aug 27, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Let proposition P1 = Judas Iscariot will inherit eternal life on the new earth after resurrection.

Between 0 and 10, how much weight do you put on each of the above propositions? The stronger your belief in a proposition, the higher the weight.

My numbers will be measures of strength-of-belief, or confidence, and they'll be estimates. They're NOT probabilities, because we don't have access to the kinds of statistical information that would give us genuine probabilities. Just in case that needs clarifying. Also, nothing is getting a weight of 10; there's almost nothing I know with complete certainty. Also, I'm going to assume that the gospel accounts are more-or-less accurate, as a precondition. (If I don't assume this, the numbers change.)

So, the propositions in my post:

P2 = Judas did a terrible thing: 8
P3 = Judas regretted his actions: 9
P4 = Jesus searches for and finds his lost "sheep" when we stray: 9

A proposition that I didn't state explicitly, but that is in my head as we discuss this:

P5 = Jesus is able to save even sinners: 9

There are other propositions we might bring into the discussion (most especially, are there sins so bad that the Good Shepherd just gives up and pushes that sheep off the cliff?), but P2-P4 above are the ones that I stated in my post.

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

PloverWing said:
They're NOT probabilities, because we don't have access to the kinds of statistical information that would give us genuine probabilities.

See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and follow up there.

Fireinfolding · Aug 27, 2023

These Psalms apply to Judas that if you follow them through, no mercy was to be shown him

Psalm 109:7 When he shall be judged, let him be condemned:

Mat 27:3a Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he **saw** that he **was condemned** repented himself, (divide this verse)

Psalm 109:11 Let the extortioner catch all that he hath

Mat 27:3b and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders

Mat 23:25 ...for within they are full of extortion and excess.

After he brings the silver again he said...

Mat 27:4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood.

Deut 27:5 Cursed be he that taketh reward to slay an innocent person. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Psalm 109:12 Let there be none to extend mercy unto him

Mat 5:27 And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that.

Psalm 109:8a.....Let his days be few.

Mat 27:5... Judas went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate,

Theres more but being condemned is shown in him and no mercy shown him just in these

Fireinfolding · Aug 27, 2023

Heres a few more

Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before
concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.

Acts 1:7 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.

John 6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

John 6:71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Mark 14:12 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed!
good were it for that man if he had never been born.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost,
but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

PloverWing · Aug 27, 2023

tonychanyt said:
See Subjective (Bayesian) Probability and follow up there.

I'm not comfortable equating Bayesian probability with subjective anything. Bayes' Rule is useful for working with conditional probabilities, but underneath it there have to be genuine probabilities -- we count events, and conjunctions of events, and put them into a formula. I don't see how we have those numbers. "I feel pretty confident" isn't really a number. So, unless we have some actual numbers, actual conditional probabilities, I'll step away from the discussion.

Fireinfolding · Aug 27, 2023

Then if you look at it this way, Paul says,

1Cr 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1Cr 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

And we know that in John 12:6 Judas was a thief

And Paul goes onto say...

1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

And here Jesus said to them

John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.

However, he continues about his comment "not all"

John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.

And again, about the one who betrays him

Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

I am actually copy pasting these (for the most part) from older posts that were made under the title "Brother Judas Iscariot" where there are some more (I was kinda colorful way back then so forgive me) Brother Judas Iscariot

tonychanyt · Aug 27, 2023

PloverWing said:
I'm not comfortable equating Bayesian probability with subjective anything. Bayes' Rule is useful for working with conditional probabilities, but underneath it there have to be genuine probabilities -- we count events, and conjunctions of events, and put them into a formula. I don't see how we have those numbers. "I feel pretty confident" isn't really a number. So, unless we have some actual numbers, actual conditional probabilities, I'll step away from the discussion.

Sure. Do you know that it is commonly used in AI, decision theory, and stock trading bots?

PloverWing · Aug 27, 2023

tonychanyt said:
Sure. Do you know that it is commonly used in AI, decision theory, and stock trading bots?

Yes, I'm a computer scientist.

Was Judas Iscariot saved?

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