Was John Calvin a murderer?

[3rdHeaven]

The same question cuts both ways. There are many non-Calvinists, who, if they could get away with it, would kill a Calvinist. Hatred is just murder in the realm of thought.

These things ought not to be.

There is pollution on both sides of the river!

 

[3rdHeaven]

Do Calvinists also believe one can fall away?

 

[Super Kal]

No they dont

 

[heymikey80]

Do Calvinists also believe one can fall away?

Believe it? I've seen it. Plus, it's a Scriptural phrase. Gotta mean something.

But then, the question is normally conventionally interpreted to mean someone can lose their salvation. Calvinists don't understand that to be the meaning of the phrase, "fall away".

 

[3rdHeaven]

Believe it? I've seen it. Plus, it's a Scriptural phrase. Gotta mean something.

But then, the question is normally conventionally interpreted to mean someone can lose their salvation. Calvinists don't understand that to be the meaning of the phrase, "fall away".

Explain the difference as you understand it please.

 

[A New Dawn]

then that's THEIR problem, and not mine... you dont have the authority to put me into the same category as them, regardless of being an administrator or not... yeah, it's wrong, i admit that, but dont even try to lump me into that crowd.

I wasn't lumping anyone into anything. I was merely making an observation.

last time I noticed, it doesnt matter if Calvin's sin was imputed onto us or not when it comes to Calvinism... ADAM'S sin was, as total hereditary depravity would have it... I was just pointing out the possibility of how SOME theology can lead one into having a "holier than thou" attitude about their theology, and even Calvinist pastors and preachers are noticing that a lot of Calvinists these days are becoming very angry, hostile, hate filled, and harsh towards brothers who disagree...

How can someone's theology, which implies that one must be humble enough to accept the help of another because of one's knowledge of his own depravity, lead to a holier-than-thou attitude?

and regarding the attitude of SOME Calvinists on this forum concerning Arminians/Non-Calvinists, you need to recheck some of these people you defend... if calling an Arminian no better than a Mormon or a Muslim, then maybe you are a bit blind to some of the bias here, ESPECIALLY on the soteriology boards...

And if you report it, it will be dealt with. I never said that anyone was above sinning, so maybe you should just knock the chip off your shoulder and admit that everyone has played a part. Blaming it all on Calvinists is pretty much a one-sided argument that nobody believes.

and when it comes to other Arminians/Non-Calvinists, you wont find many here anymore, wanna know why? they left because of crap such as this... they left because of "holier than thou" Calvinists being impolite, hostile, and harsh, and biased mods partial to Calvinism letting Calvinists have free reign in the soteriology forum, and threatening any other person who differs in opinion with a ban when they try to defend Biblical teaching against Gnostic teaching.

People are only banned when they violate the rules.

you want to know HOW i know this info?... because I talk with them on a regular basis on other forums, such as carm.org... they dont stay here because they see the partiality and ridiculousness here on these forums when it comes to Calvinism and soteriology.

Then they are not being truthful with you. CF does not promote one theology over another, and there are mods from all Christian faiths here, so it can't be as they said. Maybe you should ask them about violating the rules.

I've paid ENOUGH attention on these boards to realize that people are NOT treated fairly... you can make that claim all you want, but actions speak louder than words... and from the looks of it, you'd rather defend a Calvinist rather than a Non-Calvinist.

I don't defend anyone, but when people violate the rules, then they bring trouble on themselves. I have given bans to both Calvinists and Arminians. Nobody is above the rules.

and to put it bluntly, if you've even cared to spend time around Arminians/Non-Calvinists, you'd actually realize that they consider Calvinists to be brothers/sisters in Christ too... but no, you'd rather listen to the Calvinist on here, who chew and spit on anyone who disagrees with them, and then get their Calvinist mod buddies to back them up.

I have spent years on this forum, both as a mod and as a poster. I have seen the best and the worst of both sides. You seem to think that just because you only talk to Arminians who have been warned and banned that it just happens to them. Think again.

 

[heymikey80]

Explain the difference as you understand it please.

I believe I have done so a number of times.

I fall away from meetings that don't need me all the time -- I come near, ask some of the participants if they really need me, and walk away. I'm never in the meeting. I walk away.

I drive away from a large city nearby every workday -- but I rarely ever enter that city.

People fall away from Christ by considering, partnering with the Holy Spirit, undergoing a variety of experiences, and then walking away. There's no faith there. There's participation and experience, without faith.

And there can even be faith, according to Jesus. But it's the faith that saves that Paul refers to, not any other kind of faith (which word in Greek is even extended to mean "trustworthiness").

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT


This thread has had a clean up. There were a number of posts that were goading others. Those posts were removed and the posts that responded to them.

Please keep this civil.

 

[3rdHeaven]

I ran across a interesting story on Catholic.com about this very story!

Seems Michael Servetus was a brilliant doctor but nevertheless a real nut case! Every one Protestant and Catholic despised him and were looking for him because of hos bizarre theologies and denouncing the trinity.

Servetus had decided that Christ was returning to earth soon to lead a final battle, as described in Revelation. Servetus believed he would be one of the warriors in the battle, serving under his namesake Michael the Archangel. As the philosopher Will Durant explained, "Servetus was a bit more insane than the average of his time"

Serving as physician to the archbishop of Vienne, Servetus was able to arrange a secret publication of Cristianismi Restitutio. A copy found its way into the hands of John Calvin, who recognized the author as Servetus. Servetus was charged with heresy in Lyons, but the proof was with Calvin in Geneva, as no copy of the book existed in Lyons. In one of the stranger twists in history, Calvin apparently so detested Servetus’ theology that he had the book delivered to the Catholic Church authorities.

Seems every one wanted Servetus killed! All the Catholics managed to do was imprisson him for 3 days until he escaped. John Calvin just completed the task every one wanted done

 

[VolRaider]

I follow Jesus Christ just as much as you do, Spurgeon.
I love Him, hear His voice, and follow Him.

As a non-Calvinist, I understand that it is not by works am I saved, nor is it through works in which I am kept... But thru His Grace in which I am saved (eph 2:8-9), and through faith in which I am kept by the power of God (1 Peter 1:5)...

You have heard that it was said, You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. (Matthew 5:43-45 NKJV)
That's what I live by

As i am a Calvinist turned Non-Calvinist, do you wish to kill me?

He won't have to kill you, Kal. If you don't follow the teachings of the French lawyer, then that means God has already predestined you to h-e-double hockey sticks!

 

[A New Dawn]

He won't have to kill you, Kal. If you don't follow the teachings of the French lawyer, then that means God has already predestined you to h-e-double hockey sticks!

Gosh, I wish people wouldn't make incredibly ignorant statements about Calvinism (or anything else, for that matter).

 

[mothcorrupteth]

Invariably in the discussion of this topic, people seem to forget that Old Testament Israel was ordered to execute incorrigible rebels (Deut. 21:18-21) and blasphemers (Lev. 24:16), both of which Michael Servetus was. Apparently, people seem to think that they can imagine a more righteous penalty for Servetus' errors than the sentence that the Genevan civil authorities carried out (burning), or even the more merciful penalty that Calvin advocated (beheading)--an imagination that I say is pure humanism. Now, you can argue that things are different in the New Testament and that Calvin and the other Reformers of his day failed to understand that, which is a rabbit trail I don't care to go down here, but at the very least, there shouldn't be any of this sensationalistic tripe that Calvin was a "murderer."

 

[rockytopva]

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin


This quotation alone proves to me that the love of God did not exist in the heart of John Calvin... Sorry! Not my kind a' guy!

 

[3rdHeaven]

"Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory." - John Calvin


This quotation alone proves to me that the love of God did not exist in the heart of John Calvin... Sorry! Not my kind a' guy!

Extremist