Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

" I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

"See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand."

redleghunter · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

Not the subject of the OP but a good question you might want to post in Exploring Christianity.

ViaCrucis · Sep 27, 2017

There is only one God. If Christ our Lord is true God, then He is God and thus the God who made Himself known to Israel. As we worship "one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity, neither confounding the Persons nor dividing the Essence", the one God is always the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit--and Christ is the Son, the only-begotten of the Father. Thus Christ is That which was made known to Abraham, to Moses, and to all the Prophets; even as the Father and the Holy Spirit are the Same That.

-CryptoLutheran

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

brinny said:
Yes. There is a holy wrath, which means wrath, without sinning. As Jesus Himself demonstrated, "anger/wrath" is not necessarily "sinful". Therefore God's wrath and judgment isn't sinful. It's a holy wrath and judgment. There is also grace, and Jesus Christ's sacrifice is the epitome of God's grace. All the more reason we are admonished to embrace Jesus Christ as our Savior.

Considering that the God of the OT laid down his life and suffered on a cross so that all of us could be saved? Yes, that's the ultimate grace. If he had did that in the OT I would have called him the ultimate God of love. And right, God has righteous anger. God is without sin but this also poses the question "Can God sin?". Is he totally incapable of sin? Could he sin if he wanted to? There was a thread called "Can angels sin?" and that's an easier question. Yes, angels can and have sinned. Lucifer was a prime example. But, can God sin?

Living Soul · Sep 27, 2017

redleghunter said:
Not the subject of the OP but a good question you might want to post in Exploring Christianity.

I agree. It wasn't my intention to hijack the thread. I apologize if that's what happened because of this question. I felt it was directly related to the question being asked as the thread title.

brinny · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Considering that the God of the OT laid down his life and suffered on a cross so that all of us could be saved? Yes, that's the ultimate grace. If he had did that in the OT I would have called him the ultimate God of love. And right, God has righteous anger. God is without sin but this also poses the question "Can God sin?". Is he totally incapable of sin? Could he sin if he wanted to? There was a thread called "Can angels sin?" and that's an easier question. Yes, angels can and have sinned. Lucifer was a prime example. But, can God sin?

If God sinned would He be "God"? Would He be "holy"? Could Jesus Christ have died as our Savior if He was with any sin? If God the Father had sin, Jesus the Christ would have as well. Could He have then been our Savior?

ViaCrucis · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

I think this is overly simplistic. People tend to stereotype God as He is described in the Old Testament as angry and violent; but is that really the case? As a reader of the Bible I see in the Old Testament frequent talk of God's mercy, love, and forgiveness. Further, the New Testament also speaks of God's judgment and wrath.

If you were to ask me the most significant distinction to be made here is that prior to the Incarnation we had a limited picture of God, in the Incarnation we have the fullness of God revealed. It's the difference between being told about someone, and meeting that someone in person. In the Old Testament we have the words of the Prophets to tell us about God, but in Christ we meet God face-to-face. And the reality of Christ demands that we read the Old Testament in light of Himself. As He has Himself said, "You search the Scriptures because in them you believe you have eternal life, it is these which bear witness to Me."

-CryptoLutheran

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

redleghunter said:
Not the subject of the OP but a good question you might want to post in Exploring Christianity.

I don't mind going off topic a little bit. It was a really good question to discuss for a while.

redleghunter · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
I believe he was, and is the God Yahweh, and the God from Genesis and all of the other OT. Why? Several reasons. For one, scripture says so. John 1:1-3, John 1:18, John 5:37, John 6:46 states:

John 1:1-3,

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

John 1:18,

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known."

John 5:37,

"And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,"

John 6:46,

"No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father."

So we learn from these four verses that Jesus is God, who was always with God the Father, and he created everything we see along with the Father. We also learn that nobody has ever seen God except for Jesus. Even Jesus himself states that nobody has seen God the Father but him. But wait! Adam and Eve saw God! Isaiah saw God! Ezekiel saw God! Countless people of the OT saw God! So, either Jesus is lying or Jesus is stating that he is the mighty Yahweh, the God of the Old Testament that created the heavens and the Earth and all we see around us. The Jews knew what Jesus was saying when he stated these things along with when he said in John 8:58:

John 8:58,

"Before Abraham was born, I am!"

To which the Jews tried to stone him for because God called himself "I am" in Exodus 3:14.

Exodus 3:14

"God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'"

So what do you think? Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament? Or was Jesus just plain a God along with the Father and God the Father is the God of the OT? Tell me what you think. I'm curious.

The question of your OP may lead to some rabbit holes. However, your post above provides a strong argument for the Deity of Jesus Christ. IMO every discussion of the Trinity starts with two Biblical truths.

1. There is only One God
2. The Deity of the Son of God Jesus Christ

The above are two solid Biblical truths. That is how the early church approached the Nature of God discussions, debates and councils. What they deduced was that, yes, there is only One True God. Yet also had proof texts The Father Person has attributes only God could have, The Son Person has attributes only God could have, The Holy Spirit Person has attributes only God could have.

The only conclusion would be Trinitarian or Tri-theism. However, they then go back to #1 above that there is only One God.

Paul addresses such here:

Colossians 2: NASB
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been over all rule and authority;

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

brinny said:
If God sinned would He be "God"? Would He be "holy"? Could Jesus Christ have died as our Savior if He was with any sin? If God the Father had sin, Jesus the Christ would have as well. Could He have then been our Savior?

Good point. I guess not, it was a stupid question I'm sorry.

brinny · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Good point. I guess not, it was a stupid question I'm sorry.

It's not a stupid question. It's an important question that is an excellent study, as a matter of fact.

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

redleghunter said:
The question of your OP may lead to some rabbit holes. However, your post above provides a strong argument for the Deity of Jesus Christ. IMO every discussion of the Trinity starts with two Biblical truths.

1. There is only One God
2. The Deity of the Son of God Jesus Christ

The above are two solid Biblical truths. That is how the early church approached the Nature of God discussions, debates and councils. What they deduced was that, yes, there is only One True God. Yet also had proof texts The Father Person has attributes only God could have, The Son Person has attributes only God could have, The Holy Spirit Person has attributes only God could have.

The only conclusion would be Trinitarian or Tri-theism. However, they then go back to #1 above that there is only One God.

Paul addresses such here:

Colossians 2: NASB
8 See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ. 9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form, 10 and in Him you have been over all rule and authority;

Right, there is only one God. But yet, God is a trinity of three persons. How can that be? That's one question that I've been asking myself ever since I became a Christian. It got me (and a friend of mine) to wonder if Christianity really is the "right" religion and to have doubt. I have faith in Jesus Christ and that is what matters but, it makes you question Christianity at the same time.

Brian Mcnamee · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

Have you read the book of Revelation? God is going to use the same types of great calamity again. In Isaiah 61 it talks about Jesus who quoted this passage in the gospels proclaiming the acceptable year of the LORD. This same passage goes on and the one who proclaimed the acceptable year of the LORD is also the one proclaiming the day of vengeance of God. When you see the 2nd coming Jesus has slayed his enemies with the sword of the word of his mouth. Before this their are giant hailstones mingled with fire. There are scorpion like stinging things that plague mankind and many other dramatic OT like sings. Yet the gospel of grace is all throughout the old testament too and the new points it out that the just shall live by faith out of Hab and notes that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. This shows Abraham was saved also by faith. David committed adultery and murder and there was no provision in the law but death for him. His psalm 51 of repentance is a model prayer for turning to Gods mercies and that alone as your only hope. The old and new are not contradictory but complimentary.

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

brinny said:
It's not a stupid question. It's an important question that is an excellent study, as a matter of fact.

Oh okay. Glad I asked a good question then!

brinny · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Oh okay. Glad I asked a good question then!

Questions are good. That's how Bible studies start.

RaymondG · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
Right, there is only one God. But yet, God is a trinity of three persons. How can that be? That's one question that I've been asking myself ever since I became a Christian. It got me (and a friend of mine) to wonder if Christianity really is the "right" religion and to have doubt. I have faith in Jesus Christ and that is what matters but, it makes you question Christianity at the same time.

I always wondered why it was necessary to explain a trinity. Why not just do what Jesus says...... What relevance does explaining God as three person have on salvation?

Neostarwcc · Sep 27, 2017

Brian Mcnamee said:
Have you read the book of Revelation? God is going to use the same types of great calamity again. In Isaiah 61 it talks about Jesus who quoted this passage in the gospels proclaiming the acceptable year of the LORD. This same passage goes on and the one who proclaimed the acceptable year of the LORD is also the one proclaiming the day of vengeance of God. When you see the 2nd coming Jesus has slayed his enemies with the sword of the word of his mouth. Before this their are giant hailstones mingled with fire. There are scorpion like stinging things that plague mankind and many other dramatic OT like sings. Yet the gospel of grace is all throughout the old testament too and the new points it out that the just shall live by faith out of Hab and notes that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. This shows Abraham was saved also by faith. David committed adultery and murder and there was no provision in the law but death for him. His psalm 51 of repentance is a model prayer for turning to Gods mercies and that alone as your only hope. The old and new are not contradictory but complimentary.

Good point. Jesus is coming as a God of wrath during the end times. I never really thought of using the book of Revelation to prove that Jesus can be a God of wrath just like he was in the OT too.

Daniel Martinovich · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

Because to make people fit to live in heaven...they have to voluntarily rule themselves. They have to be people of good will. Earth is the training ground for this. When Adam and his descendants refused this and became ignorant, selfish, committed to the gratification of their needs and desires and brought all this darkness into the world. God needed a beachhead on the planet to invade it with his invisible government that influences people to be what they need to be.
What I am trying to say is that righteousness \good will is not imposable on human beings. It has to be voluntarily accepted. What God did at Calvary had to be worked up to...to actually work, and slowly bring about this voluntary change. In time he aims to get most of mankind to voluntarily do what they were created to do in the first palace. Populate heaven with responsible, righteous people of good will. Why? because if your "love." and you have all the benefits\blessing of it. You want to share it with others and give them what you have. If your God you would create others to share in those blessings. Thing is to have it they have to become "love" also. (I certainly don't mean love the way ignorant pop culture defines it.)

messager777 · Sep 27, 2017

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

.
No, you are quite mistaken. Eg .......
ACTS.5: =
7 Now it was about three hours later when his wife came in, not knowing what had happened. 8 And Peter answered her, “Tell me whether you sold the land for so much?”

She said, “Yes, for so much.”

9 Then Peter said to her, “How is it that you have agreed together to test the Spirit of the Lord? Look, the feet of those who have buried your husband are at the door, and they will carry you out.” 10 Then immediately she fell down at his feet and breathed her last. And the young men came in and found her dead, and carrying her out, buried her by her husband. 11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Do you know what God did to the Jews who had rejected Jesus as the Christ/Messiah and proceeded to 'kill' Him on the Cross in 33AD.? (cf; LUKE.21:20, MATTHEW.24:15-16 & 24, ROMANS.12:19-21)
... The stubborn Jews and Pharisees were massacred and their Holy Temple of God in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman Army in 70AD.

Jesus Christ came down to earth(ie from heaven) on a mission to save people from hell.(cf; MATTHEW.5:17-48) He had to submit to evildoers/sinners and be killed or sacrificed, in order to fulfill His mission or the will of the Father.
... So, Jesus did not resist or curse/punish/harm the Jewish persecutors, accusers and murderers, eg MATT.26:53.

God's/Jesus's love, compassion and healing did not change from the OT to the NT. Similarly, Man's inborn propensity for sinfulness/evilness/satanism did not change from the OT to the NT. Only the way to heaven did change from the OT to the NT.(cf: JOHN.14:1-6, LUKE.16:19-31)
.
.
P S - The mission of Moses in 1500BC was to 'save' the Jews from Egyptian(= symbolic of Satan) slavery and lay down God's Law for the Jews(EXODUS.20, DEUT.28), in order to curb Man's inborn propensity for committing sins = a peaceful, orderly and prosperous nation or kingdom = Israel/Judah
... Alas, the Jews failed to keep Moses Law faithfully and God cursed/punished them into foreign rule/colonization in 500BC, ie back to 'Egyptian slavery'.

Marvin Knox · Sep 27, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
If Jesus was really the God of the OT why did he show so much anger and vengeance in the OT and then in the NT come down as a God of love and grace?

"I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world." John 12:47

Living Soul said:
Respectfully, one question I've always had about the Holy Trinity is, why did God use anger, war, and violence to solve problems in the OT and then use love, compassion, and healing in the NT to solve problems?

The way God solved the problem of sin when He came into the world (N.T.) was to pour out His unmitigated wrath on the Son of man - Jesus.

"But the LORD was pleased to crush Him, putting Him to grief......" Isaiah 53:10

I know it's a quote from the O.T. - but it's all about the Messiah of the N.T. when He returns in wrath for judgment (which is mentioned many times in the N.T.). Isaiah 63 pictures Jesus as He is upon His return to earth.

"Why is Your apparel red,
And Your garments like the one who treads in the wine press?
“I have trodden the wine trough alone,
And from the peoples there was no man with Me.
I also trod them in My anger
And trampled them in My wrath;
And their lifeblood is sprinkled on My garments,
And I stained all My raiment.
“For the day of vengeance was in My heart,
And My year of redemption has come.
“I looked, and there was no one to help,
And I was astonished and there was no one to uphold;
So My own arm brought salvation to Me,
And My wrath upheld Me.
“I trod down the peoples in My anger
And made them drunk in My wrath,
And I poured out their lifeblood on the earth.”

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Was Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

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