Was Jesus Irreligiously Logical?

[Stinker]

Many, many, people have been raised to believe that 'religion' is mutually exclusive of logic. That if any logic is used in a religion then it renders that religion invalid. So many of these people were raised to believe that a denominational belief is valid only if it remains in the realm of MYSTICISM.

Mysticism- the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight) 3.a: vague speculation: a belief without sound basis. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10th ed.

From my experience, no where else is this more apparent than when these people get a hold of John 3:3-8



Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (Jn.3:3-8)

The denominational mystics cannot see how Jesus used logic in explaining the 2 elements of the 'new birth' . Water is used as spiritual vehicle to transport a person's soul into the body of Christ where it is spiritually cleansed of sins. (Eph.1:7) We know this because the Spirit taught us this by bringing the word of God to us so long ago. When we are 'born of the Spirit' that's what Jesus meant.

 

[Svt4Him]

I believe God is logical. The majority of the time we understand it, sometimes we don't.

 

[mustang_94]

Mysticism without logic seems to be simple paganism and logic without mysticism to be only religion. Certainly the two are firmly joined together through out the old and new testament. Of course, this is only my opionion.

 

[Stinker]

How many times have we heard someone give testamony as to how they were 'saved' outside any New Testament example that we read about? Lots! That is the mysticism I am referring to. This 'mysticism' places spiritual authority in the person making the claim and not the Bible.

 

[Toms777]

Water is used as spiritual vehicle to transport a person's soul into the body of Christ where it is spiritually cleansed of sins.

Water transports spirit?? And you are talking about illogic in the beliefs of others? Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both being God are omnipresent and do not need the soul to be transported anywhere for cleansing.

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.

 

[RVincent]

Water transports spirit?? And you are talking about illogic in the beliefs of others? Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both being God are omnipresent and do not need the soul to be transported anywhere for cleansing.

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.

It may be that stinker was paraphrasing Romans 6:3-4. But I cannot speak for him, nor do I believe that I would have worded the statement in the same manner.

 

[getreal52]

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.

Oh - so Jesus said that and knowingly confused the masses for 2000 years until medical science could discover that fact ??? If this was what He was referring to it would have made sense at that time for Him to say "born of blood and spirit" but that is not what He said.


The correct answer to the context of that passage is much more simple than that one - Jesus is talking about baptism when he says we have to be "born of water and spirit" as He teaches all nations should be baptized.

 

[plmarquette]

Many, many, people have been raised to believe that 'religion' is mutually exclusive of logic.
perception / reality " blind faith " .... we use logic = logos of God's word & mysticism ( spiritual ears ) to discern his voice , will , and leading.

That if any logic is used in a religion then it renders that religion invalid. So many of these people were raised to believe that a denominational belief is valid only if it remains in the realm of MYSTICISM.
religiosity and religion are not synomous ... religion seeks God , religisity is rite , ritual , tradition , the status quo ... in that Jesus was " irrelegious " did what dad said irrespective of the perception of the religious folk = pharisees and saducees

Mysticism- the belief that direct knowledge of God, spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience (as intuition or insight) 3.a: vague speculation: a belief without sound basis. Merriam Webster's Collegiate Dictionary 10th ed.
a man with a close encounter of the God kind is no longer at the expense of one with an opinion ... falling out in spirit , being overcome / ovewhelmed / delivered , healed , set free ... all tangible , measurable , viable confirmation of His presence , omnipotence , and omnipresence

From my experience, no where else is this more apparent than when these people get a hold of John 3:3-8
Nicodemus didn't have a clue .. he thought Jesus was telling him to go back up into mom's womb ... veiled reference , type and shadow , of his death , burial , and resurrection ; what would take place in us when we believe in him

Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."
Nicodemus saith unto Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but cannot tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is everyone that is born of the Spirit." (Jn.3:3-8)
seek to believe , that you might understand , by faith

The denominational mystics cannot see how Jesus used logic in explaining the 2 elements of the 'new birth' . Water is used as spiritual vehicle to transport a person's soul into the body of Christ where it is spiritually cleansed of sins.
looking where their predicessor's did ... wrong place : status , position , power ... rather than the least of his brethren , with intellect v's spirit

(Eph.1:7) We know this because the Spirit taught us this by bringing the word of God to us so long ago. When we are 'born of the Spirit' that's what Jesus meant.

The spirit reveals what you put into your spirit .... songs , logos , word of God = compassion , love , mercy , faithfulness - fruit of the spirit ; fellowship of like minded believers ... regular church attendance , fellowship - questions , instruction , study

 

[Toms777]

Oh - so Jesus said that and knowingly confused the masses for 2000 years until medical science could discover that fact ???

Please deal with what I said and not something that I did not say.

If this was what He was referring to it would have made sense at that time for Him to say "born of blood and spirit" but that is not what He said.

He explained what he meant. he was clear and no one mis-understood.

The correct answer to the context of that passage is much more simple than that one

Nothing is simpler than taking Jesus' explanation at face value. Far simpler and more reliable than having man come up with an alternate.

 

[RVincent]

We are going to straighten this out. Push all that you have heard aside.

Where is "born again" actually found in the MSS?

(1 Pet 1:23) Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.​

born again, anagennao anagennao = "born again".

But what about John 3:3, 7?

(John 3:3) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.​

born again, gennao anothen = "'procreated' from above". Not "born again".

(John 3:5) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.​

born of water. It was known from the very beginning, they couldn't miss it, that when a woman is about to give birth, the water breaks.

Christ is saying that in order to enter the kingdom of God:

1. Your soul must be created from God, "from above", obviously.

2. Your body must be born from the water of the womb. Why? There were certain angels who decided not to be born of woman, but decided instead to leave their habitation (Jude 1:6), and make women their play-things (Gen. 6). They condemned themselves to death. They will not enter the kingdom of God.

(John 3:6-7) That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. {7} Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.​

Marvel not. It's so simple and basic: Your flesh body came from your flesh mother (the water), your spiritual body came from God, "from above".

(John 3:13) And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.​

Properly translated, "And no man hath ascended up to heaven, except he (first) come down from heaven, (this) includes the Son of man which is in heaven."

You cannot return to a place you did not come from.

If you ask most Christians where their soul comes from, they'll usually say, "It came from God."

Well, YES! "Marvel not".

 

[Carrye]

God and logic aren't contraries. And really, how could it be otherwise? God gave humans rationality, and the fruit of that reason is logic. Logic doesn't allow us to grasp God, but it is a tool that we can use to help understand Him and His Creation.

 

[Stinker]

Water is used as spiritual vehicle to transport a person's soul into the body of Christ where it is spiritually cleansed of sins.

Water transports spirit?? And you are talking about illogic in the beliefs of others? Jesus and the Holy Spirit, both being God are omnipresent and do not need the soul to be transported anywhere for cleansing.

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.

__________________
Eternity: Your Choice - Smoking or Non-Smoking

Heb 10:11-13
11 And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. 12 But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat
​

"For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ." (Gal.3:37)

In Christ is where our souls are washed clean by His blood....."In whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace." (Eph.1:7)

Therefore, baptism is the vehicle that puts us INTO Christ. ALL spiritual blessings....are IN Christ. "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesu Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places...in Christ." (Eph.1:3)


Toms777: This is the way you understand John 3:5....Jesus answered. "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of the flesh and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." Is there another way a man can come to be? Hatched?

 

[Toms777]

Toms777: This is the way you understand John 3:5

Please allow me to say how I understand things and I'll let you tell us how you understand things...okay?

 

[Stinker]

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.


Sorry if I caused you to be upset Toms777 but your above quote led me to conclude that you understood Jesus to mean that the WATER of Jn.3:5 actually meant FLESH.

 

[Toms777]

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.


Sorry if I caused you to be upset Toms777 but your above quote led me to conclude that you understood Jesus to mean that the WATER of Jn.3:5 actually meant FLESH.

That is not what you said. The principle stands - I will tell you what I mean and what I understand, and i won't tell you what you mean and understand - agreed? I don't think that is an unreasonable request. If that is not acceptable, I am sure that I could think up things for you to believe also.

As for John 3, I believe what Jesus said.

John 3:5-7
5 Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.'
NKJV

I have been very clear about this, and if you wanted to be honest about what I believed, you could have quoted me from several past messages.

 

[Beowulf]

Born of water may also mean born of woman.
Therefore no other creation, whether angels or other heavenly creations, can inherit the Kingdom of God.

 

[Toms777]

Born of water may also mean born of woman.
Therefore no other creation, whether angels or other heavenly creations, can inherit the Kingdom of God.

Yes, indeed. Thanks for bringing out that point.

 

[Stinker]

Born of water may also mean born of woman.
Therefore no other creation, whether angels or other heavenly creations, can inherit the Kingdom of God.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the WASHING of WATER (childbirth??) by the word." (Eph.5:26)

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the WASHING of regeneration (childbirth??) and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

 

[Toms777]

Born of water may also mean born of woman.
Therefore no other creation, whether angels or other heavenly creations, can inherit the Kingdom of God.

First, if you would use the quote function, it would be easier to follow what is being said and the quotes that you are responding to, who said it and the fact that they are not your words, which may get lost, particularly when someone else responds to your comments as I have here - just a comment.

"That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the WASHING of WATER (childbirth??) by the word." (Eph.5:26)

Note that water in this context is symbolic of the "word", which refers to the word of God, the Bible.

"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the WASHING of regeneration (childbirth??) and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)

Let's read it in context:

Titus 3:4-7
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
NKJV

Water is not even mentioned here - the washing refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the one true baptism of which water baptism is symbolic.

I appreciate you posting these three examples because it shows how one can come to erroneous conclusion by taking three different verses out of context.

 

[Stinker]

Jesus explains that the reference to water was referring to the flesh (which is very logical since we have discovered in the past few decades that in fact Jesus was right in calling flesh "water" as it is 75% water.


Sorry if I caused you to be upset Toms777 but your above quote led me to conclude that you understood Jesus to mean that the WATER of Jn.3:5 actually meant FLESH.
Water is not even mentioned here - the washing refers to the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the one true baptism of which water baptism is symbolic.


That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the WASHING of WATER (childbirth??) by the word." (Eph.5:26)
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy he saved us, by the WASHING of regeneration (childbirth??) and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)




Now we are getting closer to the truth about the 'water' of John 3:5
Now we understand that the 'water' in these three passages of scripture, do not mean childbirth! Thank you!

When we come to understand that they did not have printed Bibles back then, we may come to understand the difference between the Holy Spirit and the 'word' and may even learn what metonymy is.