Was Jesus God?

[Ormly]

We know that Christ was God; He created all things.


" .......forout of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Matt.12:34


Christ is accurately looked upon as the "Word"; the "Lips", the very expression of the Heart that is the Father, inseparable from the Father as our own lips are from our heart --- but Jesus was born of a virgin. He was both Son of man and Son of God. When Peter declared Him, was He at that moment Son of God in actuality or more simply unfulfilled reality known only to the Father to be complete in Him, reality that would soon testify to all mankind, when He cried upon the Cross, "It is Finished"?

We might ask what else those three words mean aside from redeeming mankind.

Blessings,

Orm

 

[Ormly]

We know that Christ was God; He created all things.


" .......forout of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Matt.12:34


Christ is accurately looked upon as the "Word"; the "Lips", the very expression of the Heart that is the Father, inseparable from the Father as our own lips are from our heart --- but Jesus was born of a virgin. He was both Son of man and Son of God. When Peter declared Him, was He at that moment Son of God in actuality or more simply unfulfilled reality known only to the Father to be complete in Him, reality that would soon testify to all mankind, when He cried upon the Cross, "It is Finished"?

We might ask what else those three words mean aside from redeeming mankind.

Blessings,

Orm

Only a few views and even fewer replies to my inquiry, namely me. Is everyone worn out with this subject, don't know, don't care, or what?

There is profound signifance to be observed when sorting out Jesus as "son of man" and "Son of God" especially when seeking to know what God's ultimate intention was for mankind....through Adam.

Is there no one interested in such understanding?

 

[dcyates]

Although this likely isn't what you had in mind--and although I fully believe Jesus to be God incarnate--we too often misuse the phrase 'Son of God'. When we hear or use this title, we very often think that this means Jesus was God, and I suppose that's fine, as far as it goes--languages develop, after all. But we should do so aware of the fact that this is not what 1st-century Jewish audiences would have been thinking when they heard or used this phrase. Rather, they would be thinking: 'King of Israel'.

 

[garry2]

God is one God and three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

John 1:3 and
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

These two verses seem to point to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit being the same person, just two diffrent names. John says Christ did the Creating, Genesis says that the Spirit of god was Creating.

Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus is the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

The Holy Spirit there is called the Spirit of Christ.

The Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

1Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We don't know all the wonders of God.

1 Cor.13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

 

[SNPete]

Was Jesus God? One may as well ask can we trust scripture? The answer is yes.

What is written:




There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both posses these attributes, unless they are one and the same.


Compare what is said about God and Jesus:


As Creator of all things:

You will notice that in Isaiah 44:24 God states that He made the universe and the earth ALL BY HIMSELF. How can they both be the creator of the universe?

God: Genesis 1:1

Jesus: Colossians 1:16

As Savior

God: Isaiah 43:11 Note that God says He is the only savior.

Jesus: Titus 3:6

The Alpha and Omega: I believe you can only have one Alpha and Omega

God: Revelation 21:6

Jesus: Revelation 22:13

The First and the Last: Only one person can be first. Only one person can be last. No mention of ties in the Bible.

God: Isaiah 44:6

Jesus: Revelation 1:17 & 2:8

Every Knee Shall Bow to me: What part of every is unclear?

God: Isaiah 45:23

Jesus: Philippians 2:10-11


Read John 10:30-33 --Jesus said, I and My Father are one.”
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

See what the Jews said in reaction to Jesus saying He and the Father were one. They knew what jesus meant.

And look at what the Jews said in Luke 5:20-25--When Jesus saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

The Jews were correct in saying that only God can forgive sins.

We have scriptures that say Jesus is God such as John 1:1--In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And then John 1:14-- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (bear in mind that God can be in two or more places at once.

Phil 2:5-8 says: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

1Tim 3:16 says: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.



Any questions?

 

[Ormly]

God is one God and three persons, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

John 1:3 and
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Gen 1:2
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

These two verses seem to point to the Word of God and the Holy Spirit being the same person, just two diffrent names. John says Christ did the Creating, Genesis says that the Spirit of god was Creating.

Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus is the Son, the Holy Spirit and the Father.

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

The Holy Spirit there is called the Spirit of Christ.

The Romans 8:9-10
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

There the Spirit of God is the Spirit of Christ.

1Peter 1:11
Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

We don't know all the wonders of God.

1 Cor.13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

But Jesus was born; begotten.

 

[Ormly]

Was Jesus God?

One may as well ask can we trust scripture? The answer is yes.

What is written:




There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both posses these attributes, unless they are one and the same.


Compare what is said about God and Jesus:


As Creator of all things:

You will notice that in Isaiah 44:24 God states that He made the universe and the earth ALL BY HIMSELF. How can they both be the creator of the universe?

God: Genesis 1:1

Jesus: Colossians 1:16

Speaking of Christ before the fact of the Cross that we now are able to say Christ Jesus, simply because the preincarnate Christ now has a new human body in which to dwell.

As Savior

God: Isaiah 43:11 Note that God says He is the only savior.

Jesus: Titus 3:6

Again we see the effect of the "work of the Cross" whereby He is able to perfom the purpose of God.

The Alpha and Omega: I believe you can only have one Alpha and Omega

God: Revelation 21:6

Jesus: Revelation 22:13

All after that fact of the Work of the Cross.

The First and the Last: Only one person can be first. Only one person can be last. No mention of ties in the Bible.

God: Isaiah 44:6

Jesus: Revelation 1:17 & 2:8

The new Christ of Glory in flesh and bone

Every Knee Shall Bow to me: What part of every is unclear?

God: Isaiah 45:23

Jesus: Philippians 2:10-11

Absolutely! All because of He is become the King of Kings in Human flesh!

Read John 10:30-33 --Jesus said, I and My Father are one.”
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

But then you and I and the Father are to be one right now as Jesus was in His pre-divine flesh, correct?

 

[garry2]

But Jesus was born; begotten.

He was only born; begotten to flesh, because He had already always existed.

 

[Ormly]

He was only born; begotten to flesh, because He had already always existed.

Using that thinking, So did you and I.

Think about it.

 

[KCDAD]

We know that Christ was God; He created all things.


" .......forout of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Matt.12:34


Christ is accurately looked upon as the "Word"; the "Lips", the very expression of the Heart that is the Father, inseparable from the Father as our own lips are from our heart --- but Jesus was born of a virgin. He was both Son of man and Son of God. When Peter declared Him, was He at that moment Son of God in actuality or more simply unfulfilled reality known only to the Father to be complete in Him, reality that would soon testify to all mankind, when He cried upon the Cross, "It is Finished"?

We might ask what else those three words mean aside from redeeming mankind.

Blessings,

Orm

Jesus was a carpenter... what does that expression mean to a carpenter?

 

[Ormly]

http://foru.ms/t6301696-concerning-adam-and-jesus.html

 

[garry2]

Using that thinking, So did you and I.

Think about it.

We existed in Gods mind, but this is our first life we havn't been reincarnated, and I don't know that we used to be angels.

 

[daveleau]

Only a few views and even fewer replies to my inquiry, namely me. Is everyone worn out with this subject, don't know, don't care, or what?

There is profound signifance to be observed when sorting out Jesus as "son of man" and "Son of God" especially when seeking to know what God's ultimate intention was for mankind....through Adam.

Is there no one interested in such understanding?

The two titles for Jesus (Son of Man and Son of God) were often interchanged to suit the situation. Jesus is fully man and fully God, and the title chosen often points to the aspect of Jesus that is being highlighted or related in the passage.

I have not done a specific study of the titles of Christ, but in my study of the titles for the Holy Spirit, there are many similar situations as the Spirit is called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Lord and many other titles. These titles served specific purposes in the context, and the same most often applies to Jesus when his titles are chosen.

Christology is the cornerstone of our faith. If we don't understand Christology, then all sorts of other problems arise in our understanding of God, and theology in general. This study affects all other aspects of Christianity (soteriology, eschatology, pneumatology, etc), as Christ's nature pervades all of these studies.

 

[zeke37]

Was Jesus God? One may as well ask can we trust scripture? The answer is yes.

What is written:




There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both posses these attributes, unless they are one and the same.


Compare what is said about God and Jesus:


As Creator of all things:

You will notice that in Isaiah 44:24 God states that He made the universe and the earth ALL BY HIMSELF. How can they both be the creator of the universe?

God: Genesis 1:1

Jesus: Colossians 1:16

As Savior

God: Isaiah 43:11 Note that God says He is the only savior.

Jesus: Titus 3:6

The Alpha and Omega: I believe you can only have one Alpha and Omega

God: Revelation 21:6

Jesus: Revelation 22:13

The First and the Last: Only one person can be first. Only one person can be last. No mention of ties in the Bible.

God: Isaiah 44:6

Jesus: Revelation 1:17 & 2:8

Every Knee Shall Bow to me: What part of every is unclear?

God: Isaiah 45:23

Jesus: Philippians 2:10-11


Read John 10:30-33 --Jesus said, I and My Father are one.”
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?” The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”

See what the Jews said in reaction to Jesus saying He and the Father were one. They knew what jesus meant.

And look at what the Jews said in Luke 5:20-25--When Jesus saw their faith, He said to him, “Man, your sins are forgiven you.” And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, “Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?” But when Jesus perceived their thoughts, He answered and said to them, “Why are you reasoning in your hearts? Which is easier, to say, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Rise up and walk’? But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins”—He said to the man who was paralyzed, “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.” Immediately he rose up before them, took up what he had been lying on, and departed to his own house, glorifying God.

The Jews were correct in saying that only God can forgive sins.

We have scriptures that say Jesus is God such as John 1:1--In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. And then John 1:14-- And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us. (bear in mind that God can be in two or more places at once.

Phil 2:5-8 says: Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

1Tim 3:16 says: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.



Any questions?

excellent post

in His service
c

 

[KCDAD]

SNPete;39959618Was Jesus God? One may as well ask can we trust scripture? The answer is yes.

The question is why?

There are a number of scriptures that state the same attribute for God and Jesus. Jesus and God cannot both posses these attributes, unless they are one and the same.

That isn't even reasonable... dogs and cats both possess the same ability to smell, hear and see much better than humans. That doesn't make them the same.

How can they both be the creator of the universe?

How can Jesus be both creator and creation?

The Jews were correct in saying that only God can forgive sins.

And yet we are told to forgive our neighbors sins over and over and again... is that just a waste of time... an exercize?

God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory.



Any questions?

Justified to whom? To whom must God be justified?
Seen by angels? What does that mean? Not seen by people?
Up? Up where? In the sky? In the stratosphere or exosphere?

 

[InnocentOdion]

I would've said yes some time ago, but now I don't think so. Not only do I think it seems to be irrational but the usage of "son" in the Bible is used for various things, for example,
Genesis 15:3: "a son of my house" means "a servant in my household"Luke 16:8: "the sons of this age"
The usage of "son" could easily in this context mean that it is something else; it could easily have meant 'a servant of God', or someting similar. I have heard, but have not seen proof, that some of the earliest manuscripts refer to Jesus as 'servant', but I have yet to have this verified when I have checked any of the Greek Manuscripts (nb I don't believe the Bible was written in Greek; about 1,000AD the people of Britain believed the Bible was written in Latin as all of the locations mentioned in the Bible were written with Latin names, so it was not Gethsemane, it was 'The Place of the Skull' in Latin)

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

We know that Christ was God; He created all things.


" .......forout of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh". Matt.12:34


Christ is accurately looked upon as the "Word"; the "Lips", the very expression of the Heart that is the Father, inseparable from the Father as our own lips are from our heart --- but Jesus was born of a virgin. He was both Son of man and Son of God. When Peter declared Him, was He at that moment Son of God in actuality or more simply unfulfilled reality known only to the Father to be complete in Him, reality that would soon testify to all mankind, when He cried upon the Cross, "It is Finished"?

We might ask what else those three words mean aside from redeeming mankind.

Blessings,

Orm

Seems an Adoptionistic view of Jesus the Man and Christ the Expression of God . . . is this accurate?

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

But Jesus was born; begotten.

NO . . . monogenes doesnt necessitate generation . . . but conveys uniqueness . . . One and Only is a better translation.

 

[dcyates]

The two titles for Jesus (Son of Man and Son of God) were often interchanged to suit the situation. Jesus is fully man and fully God, and the title chosen often points to the aspect of Jesus that is being highlighted or related in the passage.

Except that the title 'Son of God' doesn't mean 'God'. In its Jewish context, it means 'king of Israel'. It was initially intended to designate the nation of Israel as 'The People of God' (Exod 4.22), but it was a title later passed on to the descendants of David (1 Sam 7.14; see also Ps 2.7 [and v 12, which should most likely be understood as: "Do homage to the son..."], Ps 2 being a 'Coronation Psalm' which was, appropriately enough, sung at a king's coronation). This usage is then underscored by Paul in Romans 1.2-4.

I have not done a specific study of the titles of Christ, but in my study of the titles for the Holy Spirit, there are many similar situations as the Spirit is called the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, the Spirit of the Lord and many other titles. These titles served specific purposes in the context, and the same most often applies to Jesus when his titles are chosen.

Christology is the cornerstone of our faith. If we don't understand Christology, then all sorts of other problems arise in our understanding of God, and theology in general. This study affects all other aspects of Christianity (soteriology, eschatology, pneumatology, etc), as Christ's nature pervades all of these studies.

I couldn't agree more. Amen.

 

[Mathetes the kerux]

Except that the title 'Son of God' doesn't mean 'God'. In its Jewish context, it means 'king of Israel'. It was initially intended to designate the nation of Israel as 'The People of God' (Exod 4.22), but it was a title later passed on to the descendants of David (1 Sam 7.14; see also Ps 2.7 [and v 12, which should most likely be understood as: "Do homage to the son..."], Ps 2 being a 'Coronation Psalm' which was, appropriately enough, sung at a king's coronation). This usage is then underscored by Paul in Romans 1.2-4.

I couldn't agree more. Amen.

I would agree . . . Son of God, ironically, is more appropriate for highlighting His humanity.

Son of Man, however, seems more appropriate to apply to His divinity . . . seeing the title is to a supernatural OT figure in Daniel. The term is also used of Ezekiel . . . but it is never used OF Ezekiel himself in application to himself . . . and NEVER associated with the many NT apocalyptic metaphors and typological references that Christ connects to the title (IE you will see the Son of Man with angels descending upon Him; Son of Man coming in great glory on the clouds etc). So in lieu of the apocalyptic contexts . . . it seems that the apocalyptic context of Daniel's figure is more suited to context of Christ's usage. This may not be very convincing to the non-believer . . . but hey . . . I find it convincing.