Was Christ really punished for our sins?

[Zurra]

So you say annihilation is the punishment for our sins. Was Christ destroyed/annihilated/ceased to exist as punishment for our sins?

Yes annihilation is the ultimate punishment for the unrepentant sinner.
The answer is in a additional post.

 

[Zurra]

To: Topic Writer

The subject is interesting and thought provoking.

 

[chris4243]

(I'm responding under my original profile)

Yes annihilation is the ultimate punishment for the unrepentant sinner.
Show me the scripture that Christ's punishment for humanity's sins is eternal death? Is there one? NO! It is only for sinners - unrepentant sinners! If you can grasp that only Jesus qualified to take the sins of the world & paid the death penalty for us, owing to the fact that He did not sin. "For the wages of sin is death".

OK. So if I'm a repentant sinner, and elect to be punished as my sin deserves instead of accept Christ taking my punishment (and everyone else's), what would my punishment be? In particular, would my punishment for the sins of one person be greater than Christ's punishment for the sins of billions of people?

Christ did not sin so therefore eternal death/destroyed/annihilated etc as punishment for sins does not apply to Him. I hope that is helpful.

Did He not take our sins upon Himself?

 

[Zurra]

OK. So if I'm a repentant sinner, and elect to be punished as my sin deserves instead of accept Christ taking my punishment (and everyone else's), what would my punishment be?In particular, would my punishment for the sins of one person be greater than Christ's punishment for the sins of billions of people?

The answer lies in the meaning of Genuine Repentance. I'm sure your familiar with the fundamental comprehension of it - i.e. to change - to turn away from, changing your direction from your own conceited way of life to fervently embracing God's way of life. Repentance also involves living faith - believing in the Gospel Acts 2:3six-39 and acting on it. It seems it is also accompanied by a wholehearted acceptance of Christ's sacrifice for our trangressions.

Now would a genuine repentant sinner seriously opt out of accepting Christ's sacrifice? Wouldn't he believe the gospel & by living faith obey every word of God?
Also would this type of mentality seem somewhat hostile to God's grace by way of not accepting Christ's sacrifice for our sins? Validiting he has not genuinely repented at all.
Also Matt 7:10 "Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death". Taking on your own punishment for your sins highly deemed akin to worldly sorrow.
Taking the above into account has this person genuinely repented? So if he hasn't than the punishment would be death. And that should answer your 2nd question it would be No, because he is an unrepentant sinner.

Did He not take our sins upon Himself?

I I explained this in a previous post on my other profile (Enigma), consider reading it again to understand. Maybe this will help what do you think this means? Acts 2:27-28"For you will not leave my soul in Hades (grave), Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption (decay after death). ...You will make me full of joy in Your presence (through resurrection from the grave)".

 

[addo]

To answer your first question, substitutionary atonement is a false doctrine. If it was true, we wouldn't even experience physical death, which as you point out, is a consequence of sin, and still exists after Christ's work.

Remember, Scripture describes Christ as a ransom. In antiquity this is something given in exchange for something owed, and does not need to be an exact duplicate of the debt. In other words, Christ doesn't have to go to hell for eternity in order to be a full ransom for mankind. As Mark_Sam pointed out, Christ is also an eternal being of infinite innocence, and in that sense, covers any eternal sin of a temporal human being.

Rather, the perspective I think we must focus is that God sent His only Son because He so loved the world---not because He demanded an exact punishment. Christ's sacrifice is an act of infinite love. If substitutionary atonement was required, then how can one say God is merciful when His wrath was supposedly entirely "appeased"?

As for your second question, sin has more consequence than temporal death. For example, when you wrong your neighbor, not only do you sin against God, but your neighbor. There's 2 consequences. And you damage your own soul because sin causes habit (i.e. as Scripture says, he who sins is slave to sin). So there are all kinds of consequences to sin that weaken us and stain our souls. Fortunately, before entering the perfection of heaven, those true children of God will be completely purified by His blood.

Good answer!

 

[chris4243]

The answer lies in the meaning of Genuine Repentance. I'm sure your familiar with the fundamental comprehension of it - i.e. to change - to turn away from, changing your direction from your own conceited way of life to fervently embracing God's way of life. Repentance also involves living faith - believing in the Gospel Acts 2:3six-39 and acting on it. It seems it is also accompanied by a wholehearted acceptance of Christ's sacrifice for our trangressions.

Now would a genuine repentant sinner seriously opt out of accepting Christ's sacrifice? Wouldn't he believe the gospel & by living faith obey every word of God?
Also would this type of mentality seem somewhat hostile to God's grace by way of not accepting Christ's sacrifice for our sins? Validiting he has not genuinely repented at all.
Also Matt 7:10 "Godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death". Taking on your own punishment for your sins highly deemed akin to worldly sorrow.
Taking the above into account has this person genuinely repented? So if he hasn't than the punishment would be death. And that should answer your 2nd question it would be No, because he is an unrepentant sinner.

I'm familiar with the concepts of repentance, and also forgiveness, atonement, sacrifice, and indebtedness. But which to apply to Christ's death? Repentance and forgiveness are fine, but they requires nothing more. Sacrifice is a good indicator of repentance and could count towards atonement, but I can't sacrifice Jesus because He does not belong to me nor can I put Him on a cross nor anything like that. If indebtedness applies, then the payment should be equal. If forgiveness applies, why not just forgive?

As for repentance requiring acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, I don't see how that requirement works. When an atheist repents of a wrong he has done to another fellow man, I simply do not see any way that his repentance would require an acceptance of Christ's sacrifice. Could you explain why it should be as you say?

I I explained this in a previous post on my other profile (Enigma), consider reading it again to understand. Maybe this will help what do you think this means? Acts 2:27-28"For you will not leave my soul in Hades (grave), Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption (decay after death). ...You will make me full of joy in Your presence (through resurrection from the grave)".

I understand, that Jesus was not destroyed nor went for eternity to Hell. I also realize that you don't think eternal hell is the punishment for sin, but many think it is.

Whatever the punishment for sin is, it would seem to me that either 1) Christ did not receive that punishment, or 2) it's not such a bad punishment that someone could not take it themselves without needing Jesus.

 

[chris4243]

To answer your first question, substitutionary atonement is a false doctrine. If it was true, we wouldn't even experience physical death, which as you point out, is a consequence of sin, and still exists after Christ's work.

Remember, Scripture describes Christ as a ransom. In antiquity this is something given in exchange for something owed, and does not need to be an exact duplicate of the debt. In other words, Christ doesn't have to go to hell for eternity in order to be a full ransom for mankind. As Mark_Sam pointed out, Christ is also an eternal being of infinite innocence, and in that sense, covers any eternal sin of a temporal human being.

That so far seems the best answer. Though I still don't see why a ransom should be required at all, nor why that ransom must be Jesus.

Rather, the perspective I think we must focus is that God sent His only Son because He so loved the world---not because He demanded an exact punishment. Christ's sacrifice is an act of infinite love. If substitutionary atonement was required, then how can one say God is merciful when His wrath was supposedly entirely "appeased"?

Just wondering, doesn't God also love Jesus? Isn't this kind of like God saying, "Well you sinned against me, but if you also kick me in the nads/kill my son I guess I can forgive all your sins."

 

[holyrokker]

Just wondering, doesn't God also love Jesus? Isn't this kind of like God saying, "Well you sinned against me, but if you also kick me in the nads/kill my son I guess I can forgive all your sins."

It's nothing like that at all.

Jesus, Himself, was God. The gospel of John shows that quite clearly: Jesus is the Creator. The Jews tried, on several occasion, to stone Him to death because He said things that made Him equal with God.

Jesus became a man (His choice) to become a ransom (His choice) for humanity. He went to the cross (His choice) to be an atonement.

 

[Zurra]

I'm familiar with the concepts of repentance, and also forgiveness, atonement, sacrifice, and indebtedness. But which to apply to Christ's death? Repentance and forgiveness are fine, but they requires nothing more. Sacrifice is a good indicator of repentance and could count towards atonement, but I can't sacrifice Jesus because He does not belong to me nor can I put Him on a cross nor anything like that. If indebtedness applies, then the payment should be equal. If forgiveness applies, why not just forgive?

I assume they all apply to His death. Rom 5:8-10 His death makes possible the forgiveness of sin (his death eradicates it), this would imply forgiveness requires acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice refer to 2 Col 2:11-13. I reiterate repentance requires change, it is not limited to being only sorry for your sins (remaining answer in next post). As for indebtedness God the Father thru Jesus Christ created us (Ephes 3:9), it is us who owe them everything. His life he sacrificed for us far exceeds the value of the total of all human beings. We owe them not vice versa. The payment for sin doesn’t change it is still death. Forgiveness we know can’t be earned & is given as a free gift, however it is not free in the way He paid a colossal price: His death. Sin exacts a price - death penalty, whoever forgives must pay the consequences for that price, and the Messiah did. It is not a matter of just saying I forgive you, it required a hefty price - by His death we are forgiven from our sins.

 

[Zurra]

As for repentance requiring acceptance of Christ's sacrifice, I don't see how that requirement works. When an atheist repents of a wrong he has done to another fellow man, I simply do not see any way that his repentance would require an acceptance of Christ's sacrifice. Could you explain why it should be as you say?

I’m speaking from a biblical perspective the requirement works if it pertains to genuine repentance towards God for their sins. The atheist broke God’s law; repentance is primarily towards the Eternal God. The atheist has only “repented” towards his fellow man not to God otherwise he wouldn’t be an atheist any longer lol. Of course his type of “repentance” would not require an acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice, due to his lack of Godly repentance 2 Cor 7:10. If an individual sincerely repents towards God, he will believe in His Word, place his faith & hope in Him, and will act on every word of the Bible indicating the acceptance of Christ’s sacrifice for the remission of his sins Matt 4:4.

 

[Zurra]

Whatever the punishment for sin is, it would seem to me that either 1) Christ did not receive that punishment, or 2) it's not such a bad punishment that someone could not take it themselves without needing Jesus.

1) God’s Word validates that He received the full death penalty punishment, He suffered an excruciating death for this world’s sins. How? He emptied himself of His glory He became human , was tempted, persecuted, despised, mocked, horrifically beaten, humiliated, abandoned & totally rejected Matt 27. His appearance was unrecognizable. He poured out His life - His blood, He bled to death Isaiah 53:8; Christ was stricken - He was slain Isaiah 53:4. Notice this vital point: He was Cut Off from God (Isaiah 59:2), Matt 27:4six “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” For the first time He experienced being completely cut off from His Father. God cannot compromise with sin, He had to forsake His son. The Messiah now understood what it meant to "be cut off" from God, He alone took on the totality of this world’s sins. The bible clearly conveys Christ paid for the full penalty of our sins, he knows what it is like to suffer for sin, He was completely “cut off” forsaken & abandoned by the Eternal Father (1 Pet 2:21-24).
An additional point is that He came to qualify (sinless) to conquer eternal death, via His sacrifice & Resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 25:8-9 He will swallow up death forever, salvation is through Him. Heb 2:14 “……that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage”. Mankind are appointed to at least die once for their sins, He was only appointed to die once (Hebs 9:27-28) not twice in the 2nd death (Rev 20). Christ was not to be left in Hades grave, He was not to see corruption Acts 2:27-28.

2) As explained above Christ suffered a horrendous punishment, he paid an enormous price for the totality of our sins. The punishment for sin is serious as exhibited by Christ’s sacrifice he was completely cut off from God - He was forsaken by God, no aid from The Father, death only. God will not compromise with sin. It patently identifies the punishment for sin is bad - death - being completely cut off from God. However God gives us free will - God does not coerce you to accept Christ’s sacrifice nor to believe that He paid the full death penalty for sin, or that the punishment for sin is seriously bad, & if you want to take on your own punishment that is entirely your choice. If you select eternal life, the only way is thru Christ (Rom 5:8-10; 1Cor15:13,17-18).

 

[chris4243]

It's nothing like that at all.

Jesus, Himself, was God. The gospel of John shows that quite clearly: Jesus is the Creator. The Jews tried, on several occasion, to stone Him to death because He said things that made Him equal with God.

Jesus became a man (His choice) to become a ransom (His choice) for humanity. He went to the cross (His choice) to be an atonement.

But that's exactly what it is like! I never said nor implied that it wasn't voluntary. Just wondering why God's self-harming behavior is necessary for His forgiving our sins (can't He forgive like any normal person?), and likewise whether said self-inflicted punishment is in fact equal to what He would require of us normal people for even a single sin.

 

[chris4243]

1) God’s Word validates that He received the full death penalty punishment, He suffered an excruciating death for this world’s sins. How? He emptied himself of His glory He became human , was tempted, persecuted, despised, mocked, horrifically beaten, humiliated, abandoned & totally rejected Matt 27. His appearance was unrecognizable. He poured out His life - His blood, He bled to death Isaiah 53:8; Christ was stricken - He was slain Isaiah 53:4. Notice this vital point: He was Cut Off from God (Isaiah 59:2), Matt 27:4six “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” For the first time He experienced being completely cut off from His Father. God cannot compromise with sin, He had to forsake His son. The Messiah now understood what it meant to "be cut off" from God, He alone took on the totality of this world’s sins. The bible clearly conveys Christ paid for the full penalty of our sins, he knows what it is like to suffer for sin, He was completely “cut off” forsaken & abandoned by the Eternal Father (1 Pet 2:21-24).
An additional point is that He came to qualify (sinless) to conquer eternal death, via His sacrifice & Resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 25:8-9 He will swallow up death forever, salvation is through Him. Heb 2:14 “……that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage”. Mankind are appointed to at least die once for their sins, He was only appointed to die once (Hebs 9:27-28) not twice in the 2nd death (Rev 20). Christ was not to be left in Hades grave, He was not to see corruption Acts 2:27-28.

2) As explained above Christ suffered a horrendous punishment, he paid an enormous price for the totality of our sins. The punishment for sin is serious as exhibited by Christ’s sacrifice he was completely cut off from God - He was forsaken by God, no aid from The Father, death only. God will not compromise with sin. It patently identifies the punishment for sin is bad - death - being completely cut off from God. However God gives us free will - God does not coerce you to accept Christ’s sacrifice nor to believe that He paid the full death penalty for sin, or that the punishment for sin is seriously bad, & if you want to take on your own punishment that is entirely your choice. If you select eternal life, the only way is thru Christ (Rom 5:8-10; 1Cor15:13,17-18).

Sure, a day of extreme agony and being briefly cut off from God, then being dead for three days sounds pretty nasty. But I'd volunteer to do that if it would forgive the sins of the entire world, or even just a few people. Or even just my own. It's just I get the impression that my punishment for my own sins is somehow supposed to be worse than Jesus' punishment for the sins of billions.

 

[Zurra]

Sure, a day of extreme agony and being briefly cut off from God, then being dead for three days sounds pretty nasty. But I'd volunteer to do that if it would forgive the sins of the entire world, or even just a few people. Or even just my own. It's just I get the impression that my punishment for my own sins is somehow supposed to be worse than Jesus' punishment for the sins of billions.

Ok. But if you really ponder it do you think a merciful God would let an unrepentant sinner continue to live in total misery not wanting to conform to His life & awesome purpose he has for a person who chooses to accept Christ's sacrifice & not take the eternal death penalty? For e.g. Satan, he lives a life of misery now, because he chose to disobey God and he cant change from his sinful ways because he is Spirit. I honestly think that God is merciful to put an unrepentant out of their misery by eternal death. What good is it to live a life hostile to God to continue to live in eternity in sin?

 

[narnia59]

1) God’s Word validates that He received the full death penalty punishment, He suffered an excruciating death for this world’s sins. How? He emptied himself of His glory He became human , was tempted, persecuted, despised, mocked, horrifically beaten, humiliated, abandoned & totally rejected Matt 27. His appearance was unrecognizable. He poured out His life - His blood, He bled to death Isaiah 53:8; Christ was stricken - He was slain Isaiah 53:4. Notice this vital point: He was Cut Off from God (Isaiah 59:2), Matt 27:4six “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?” For the first time He experienced being completely cut off from His Father. God cannot compromise with sin, He had to forsake His son. The Messiah now understood what it meant to "be cut off" from God, He alone took on the totality of this world’s sins. The bible clearly conveys Christ paid for the full penalty of our sins, he knows what it is like to suffer for sin, He was completely “cut off” forsaken & abandoned by the Eternal Father (1 Pet 2:21-24).
An additional point is that He came to qualify (sinless) to conquer eternal death, via His sacrifice & Resurrection from the dead. Isaiah 25:8-9 He will swallow up death forever, salvation is through Him. Heb 2:14 “……that through death He might destroy him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, and release those who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage”. Mankind are appointed to at least die once for their sins, He was only appointed to die once (Hebs 9:27-28) not twice in the 2nd death (Rev 20). Christ was not to be left in Hades grave, He was not to see corruption Acts 2:27-28.

2) As explained above Christ suffered a horrendous punishment, he paid an enormous price for the totality of our sins. The punishment for sin is serious as exhibited by Christ’s sacrifice he was completely cut off from God - He was forsaken by God, no aid from The Father, death only. God will not compromise with sin. It patently identifies the punishment for sin is bad - death - being completely cut off from God. However God gives us free will - God does not coerce you to accept Christ’s sacrifice nor to believe that He paid the full death penalty for sin, or that the punishment for sin is seriously bad, & if you want to take on your own punishment that is entirely your choice. If you select eternal life, the only way is thru Christ (Rom 5:8-10; 1Cor15:13,17-18).

Jesus was not cut off from God! He is God -- how can he be cut off from himself?

Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22 when he says "My God, my God why have you foresaken me?" For those who see him as foresaken, he is pointing them to this psalm -- please read it in its totality so you can see the message he was sending them. Specifically, even though you perceive me as a worm, as despised -- what you think you see is quite far from reality. It turns into a magnificent psalm of praise, and quite specifically says that the Father had not turned his back on him.

19 But thou, O LORD, be not far off! O thou my help, hasten to my aid! 20 Deliver my soul from the sword, my life from the power of the dog! 21 Save me from the mouth of the lion, my afflicted soul from the horns of the wild oxen! 22 I will tell of thy name to my brethren; in the midst of the congregation I will praise thee: 23 You who fear the LORD, praise him! all you sons of Jacob, glorify him, and stand in awe of him, all you sons of Israel! 24 For he has not despised or abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; and he has not hid his face from him, but has heard, when he cried to him. 25 From thee comes my praise in the great congregation; my vows I will pay before those who fear him. 26 The afflicted shall eat and be satisfied; those who seek him shall praise the LORD! May your hearts live for ever! 27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn to the LORD; and all the families of the nations shall worship before him. 28 For dominion belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations. 29 Yea, to him shall all the proud of the earth bow down; before him shall bow all who go down to the dust, and he who cannot keep himself alive. 30 Posterity shall serve him; men shall tell of the Lord to the coming generation, 31 and proclaim his deliverance to a people yet unborn, that he has wrought it.

The idea that the Father could turn the back on the son is a contradiction to the foundational doctrine of the Christianity -- the Trinity, that says for all eternity, they are one in being; consubstantial. If the Father could truly turn his back on the son, we would no longer have three persons in one God, but three persons who are no longer unified -- it's not possible that even for a moment they were not totally unified.

This is why Jesus tells the apostles at the last supper that even though they will abandon him in his time of need, he will not be alone, because the Father will be with him (John 16:32). Or was Jesus wrong about that?

 

[Zurra]

Jesus was not cut off from God! He is God -- how can he be cut off from himself??

Yes he was for that moment, did he pay the death penalty for zilch?
Yes I agree He is God, confusion lies in the definition of God. We know there is one God (1 Cor 8:4;Deut six;4), along with God aka Elohim (Gen 1:1) the plural form indicates more than 1 being in the Godhead, but they are still one God i.e. one Divine God Family. Hence, the Godhead consists of 2 distinct separate beings, God the Father & Jesus the son, in the divine God Family. Of course he can’t cut himself off, because Jesus the son is not God the Father .

Jesus is quoting from Psalm 22 when he says "My God, my God why have you foresaken me?" For those who see him as foresaken, he is pointing them to this psalm -- please read it in its totality so you can see the message he was sending them. Specifically, even though you perceive me as a worm, as despised -- what you think you see is quite far from reality. It turns into a magnificent psalm of praise, and quite specifically says that the Father had not turned his back on him.

What you perceive to know pertaining this subject is limited discernment. I am already aware that Jesus was fulfilling the prophecy in Psalms 22. Did I state God the Father would cut Jesus off forever? An emphatic NO! You have apparently missed the crux of the matter; to be precise he quoted the first part of Psalm 22:1, it was at that moment in history Jesus experienced what it was like to be alone, cut off from God why? Endeavour to comprehend..Because he became sin for us 2 Cor 5:21, "And the LORD has laid on Him the iniquity of us all" Is.53:6. SIN = DEATH PENALTY Roms 6:23. God does not compromise with sin, He was forced to forsake His son at that moment because of mankind's sins - Isaiah 59:2" But your iniquities have separated you from God; And your sins have hidden his face from you, So that He will not hear. Psalms 22 is about the sacrifice of the redeemer of mankind, that is what the Messiah did he sacrificed his life by taking on makinds' sins, he eradicated the worlds sins via his death & that involved God the Father cutting him off for that moment as revealed in verse 1.

 

[Zurra]

This is why Jesus tells the apostles at the last supper that even though they will abandon him in his time of need, he will not be alone, because the Father will be with him (John 16:32). Or was Jesus wrong about that?

No, Jesus is not wrong about that. I know you simply do not get it. Evidently you cannot comprehend the significance of Christ's sacrifice. You do no grasp the colossal price Christ paid for this worlds' sins, you still don't comprehend basic know of how seriously repulsive sin is to God that He had no alternative but to forsake His beloved son because he was at that moment "sin for us".