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Was Ardipithecus a Human Ancestor?

Notedstrangeperson

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The creationists are going to love this. :p
Rather than indicating a direct link to modern humans, the familiar features of some purported human ancestors, including Ardipithecus ramidus, might be explained by convergent evolution

Some of the most solid evidence for Ardi being included in the hominin branch is her small canine teeth. But the researchers are quick to point out that other ancient non-hominin species, including Oreopithecus and Ouranopithecus, also came to have reduced canine teeth, "presumably as a result of parallel shifts in dietary behavior in response to changing ecological conditions," the researchers suggest in their article. "Thus, these changes are in fact, not unique to hominins."

The placement of a hole at the base of the skull, known as the foramen magnum, also might suggest Ardi as an upright walker, and thus perhaps a solid hominin. But in looking to other apes, "this feature is more broadly associated with differences in head carriage and facial length, rather than uniquely with bipedalism," Wood and Harrison note. Some extinct primates, such as Oreopithecus bambolii, evolved outside of the human line but nevertheless possessed similarly hominin-like traits, which, the authors write, "encourage researchers to generate erroneous assumptions about evolutionary relationships."
("Was 'Ardi' not a human ancestor after all?" -
Scientific American)

So, does Ardi represent a true step toward humanity, or should she remain up in the side branches of the evolutionary tree? White and his fellow authors do not propose to have a definitive answer, but through painstaking analysis of the fossil data and surroundings, they conclude in the overview paper that, "There are no apparent features sufficiently unique to warrant the exclusion of Ar. ramidus as being ancestral to Australopithecus,".
("How humanlike was 'Ardi'? -
Scientific American)

-----------------------------------

The problem is we don't really know what very early apes (i.e. primapes which lived before the human-ape split) looked like. Some have traits which we once thought were exclusive to human ancestors. For example - Anoiapithecus brevirostris had an unusually flat and human-like face, but it lived 12 million years ago. Another, Oreopithecus bambolii, mentioned above, has such mixed features people cannot decide whether it was merely an extinct ape or an early hominid.​


Any thoughts? Was Ardi a human ancestor after all? What traits should we be looking for to determine which apes gave rise to humans?​
 
C

cupid dave

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Any thoughts? Was Ardi a human ancestor after all? What traits should we be looking for to determine which apes gave rise to humans?


Genesis actually supports the exact same thinking used by our Paleontologists today, but the scientists do not yet have the 22 links that really go together:



Adamcain.jpg



READ THE LAST SCIENCE HERE:

The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans
G.J. Sawyer, Viktor Deak

Hardcover, 256 pages
Published June 28th 2007 by Yale University Press






sethNoah.jpg
 
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Split Rock

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Any thoughts? Was Ardi a human ancestor after all? What traits should we be looking for to determine which apes gave rise to humans?[/LEFT]

We need more fossils before we figure out if Ardi was a direct human ancestor. It does seem clear that bipedalism was an early trait of human ancestors.
 
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C

cupid dave

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Nah... it doesn't.


ou are a funny guy...

You are posting doubts about the things religious people have been saying, criticizing them and their ideas based on rational facts to the contrary.

BUT, when facts confront your doubts about the bible, like this recent book by well known and esteemed paleontologists you answer back with mere person opinion and unfounded rejection.



The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans
G.J. Sawyer, (Author), Viktor Deak (Author), Esteban Sarmiento (Author), Richard Milner (Author), Donald C. Johanson (Foreword), Maeve Leakey (Afterword), Ian Tattersall (Introduction

http://www.amazon.com/Last-Human-Twenty-Two-Species-Extinct/dp/0300100477/ref=pd_ys_ir_all_76?pf_rd_p=258372101&pf_rd_s=center-1&pf_rd_t=1501&pf_rd_i=list&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0ABGJDWD85JKZFZWTV3D


Editorial Reviews
From Publishers Weekly

Remarkable in scope and clarity, this stunning collaboration among scientists, scholars and artists reveals the vast panorama of hominid evolution.

The project began when the Fossil Hominid Reconstruction and Research Team, led by a anatomical data for each species were combined with anthropological and climatological research to produce this volume, covering 22 species and 7 million years.

As chapters move chronologically from our most primitive antecedents, the poorly known "ape-men" of the African Sahel, through more well-known ancestors, such as the ` the data grows in complexity and quantity; happily, fictional accounts of individual hominids draw readers into each new chapter. Illustrated with astonishingly life-like portraits of long-gone species, this volume also includes appendices that describe in detail how


Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.


From Booklist
As paleoanthropologist Ian Tattersall points out in his introduction to this marvelous new book on our ancestors, we Homo sapiens find ourselves in the unusual situation of being alone on the planet as the sole surviving hominid. For most of the history of the hominid lineage, the world was home to coexisting prehumans and humans.

From paleontological and anthropological data previously available only in scientific publications, the authors have created an accessible field guide to our twenty-two extinct cousins.

Beginning each section with a short slice-of-life story about fossil bones. This very current book explains the science as it now stands and is a must-buy for all libraries.

Nancy Bent
Copyright © American Library Association. All rights reserved
]
 
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Phred

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ou are a funny guy...
No, just being succinct. I see no reason for a long, drawn out answer to your claim when, "nah, it doesn't" works just as well.

You are posting doubts about the things religious people have been saying, criticizing them and their ideas based on rational facts to the contrary.
Have I been posting doubts? No. I don't have doubts. Not about this. When I post that evolution is a fact it's backed up by years and years of study, experimentation and observation. When you post a question about any facet of that knowledge chain it can be found for you. Granted, if the question is narrow enough you might require some education to understand the answer, but all the same, it's there.

Then there's the creationist. You. You come along make a claim that unsupported by a knowledge chain. You have a few random references to a book here, an article there... a few well-crafted websites that are basically giant lying cesspools. Misdirection and dishonesty. And these are Christian values on display? And then to top it off, your over-arcing theme is "Goddidit" and you can't show any evidence that God exists.

I point this out. Sorry, but you have the Bible. What the Bible can be shown to be is a collection of stories from a long time ago. Well-preserved granted, but not miraculously so. That's it. You have the Bible, you have faith, and you have ignorance about what it is that you actually object to. And, in many cases, what it is you actually believe. There are currently over 40,000 different sects of Christianity in the United States. 40,000 different interpretations of the Bible that people get together and agree upon. 40,000 different groups who think they are the only ones with a pipeline to God. And that's not considering the millions who stay quiet but interpret their church's dogma on their own. We see it here at least once a day.

BUT, when facts confront your doubts about the bible, like this recent book by well known and esteemed paleontologists you answer back with mere person opinion and unfounded rejection.
What "facts"? This doesn't in the least change anything about the Theory of Evolution or about human evolution. I can't find the chapter where it says, "and then man magically appeared one day fully formed as we are today in the image of his creator. All this evolution stuff is crap." Did I miss it?
 
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Naraoia

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We need more fossils before we figure out if Ardi was a direct human ancestor. It does seem clear that bipedalism was an early trait of human ancestors.
Of human ancestors, or of the ancestors a little further down the tree? Sahelanthropus comes to mind.
 
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mark kennedy

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Any thoughts? Was Ardi a human ancestor after all? What traits should we be looking for to determine which apes gave rise to humans?[/LEFT]

I have often found it puzzling that the obvious question is never explored. Give me one good reason that this Ardi species is less likely to be a chimpanzee ancestor rather then human. Judging just from the look of the skull and those prominent canines indicates to me that Ardi is much closer to apes then humans. I'll give you guys credit for one thing, no matter what kind of an ape skull is found it is quickly labeled a human ancestor.
 
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Naraoia

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I have often found it puzzling that the obvious question is never explored. Give me one good reason that this Ardi species is less likely to be a chimpanzee ancestor rather then human. Judging just from the look of the skull and those prominent canines indicates to me that Ardi is much closer to apes then humans.
Humans are apes.

I'll give you guys credit for one thing, no matter what kind of an ape skull is found it is quickly labeled a human ancestor.
Did you read the OP? And have you ever heard of Sahelanthropus?

The whole point of the thread is whether some of these "ape skulls" are really human ancestors.
 
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Naraoia

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Nope. Darwinists altered Linnaeus' classification. Originally all apes fell under Simia and Humans under Homo. There are still evolutionists who stick to the original classification before Darwinists altered it.

Humans and apes evolved from a common ancester, but that ancestor was never an ape. You are falling into a creationist trap to say they were and that Humans are apes.
No, I'm "falling into" the trap of cladistics ;)
 
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philadiddle

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There are currently over 40,000 different sects of Christianity in the United States. 40,000 different interpretations of the Bible that people get together and agree upon. 40,000 different groups who think they are the only ones with a pipeline to God. And that's not considering the millions who stay quiet but interpret their church's dogma on their own. We see it here at least once a day.
I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but this is one of the most ignorant views that some atheists hold. There are NOT 40,000 different interpretations of the bible. The gospel message is the same throughout the different denominations. The only big changes in belief are when we move to mormonism or jehova's witnesses.

Sure, there are different opinions about the small insignificant parts of the bible, but in general we all agree. Creationism seems to be the only main exception, but that's a far cry from 40,000 different interpretations.
 
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philadiddle

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I have often found it puzzling that the obvious question is never explored. Give me one good reason that this Ardi species is less likely to be a chimpanzee ancestor rather then human. Judging just from the look of the skull and those prominent canines indicates to me that Ardi is much closer to apes then humans. I'll give you guys credit for one thing, no matter what kind of an ape skull is found it is quickly labeled a human ancestor.
Hey MK, I'm wondering if you could tell me when you think humans were made and in what part of the world they were put in? I got curious about your perspective on this issue in another thread but I think you lost interest in the discussion because I didn't see you back there.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Mark Kennedy said:
Give me one good reason that this Ardi species is less likely to be a chimpanzee ancestor rather then human. Judging just from the look of the skull and those prominent canines indicates to me that Ardi is much closer to apes then humans.

I think that's a fair question.

Obviously if humans evolved from apes, then it stands to reason that a human ancestor would have a combination of ape-like and human-like traits. The questions are:

a) Which traits are these?
b) Which traits evolved first?

It was once thought that human ancestors, like modern apes, walked on their knuckles. Today most athropologists think this wasn't the case. Fossils of their hands, for example, seemed to have evolved from monkey-like to human-like. It's as if some human ancestors cut out the middle man and skipped the "ape stage" altogether.

Similarly, we debate which traits evolved first. It was once thought human ancestors had ape-like bodies with large human-like brains. Today we know the opposite is true. Another hominid (Homo Floresiensis - a.k.a. the Hobbit) also has a strange mixture of very primitive and very modern traits. It looks like they cut out the middle man too.
 
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Naraoia

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It was once thought that human ancestors, like modern apes, walked on their knuckles. Today most athropologists think this wasn't the case. Fossils of their hands, for example, seemed to have evolved from monkey-like to human-like. It's as if some human ancestors cut out the middle man and skipped the "ape stage" altogether.
Didn't someone also argue that knuckle-walking in gorillas and chimps is actually convergent? Wait... Yes, here's the abstract.
 
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Phred

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I'm sorry to be the one to inform you of this, but this is one of the most ignorant views that some atheists hold. There are NOT 40,000 different interpretations of the bible. The gospel message is the same throughout the different denominations. The only big changes in belief are when we move to mormonism or jehova's witnesses.

Sure, there are different opinions about the small insignificant parts of the bible, but in general we all agree. Creationism seems to be the only main exception, but that's a far cry from 40,000 different interpretations.
I suppose those snake handlers, for example, agree about everything with you?
 
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