Was Adam a universalist?

Hmm · Oct 10, 2022

David's Harp said:
Well, somehow, I imagined you may be struggling with some sort of doubt, but I guess not. Forgive me for showing any concern.

We all have doubts. Doubt is natural because we are finite creatures and acknowledging doubt is a sign of strength of faith. You may struggle with your own doubt but don't project onto me.

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

Hmm said:
So Adam may not have been a universalist but is not the lesson of his story that we should be?

I love the punchline.

Good topic, thanks.

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

--- EDIT ---

Sketcher said:
Also, if universalism is true, then there's no "need" to change our thinking about God. Since we'd all be in Heaven at the end anyway, erroneous thinking about God would be meaningless, whether in the "conservative" direction, or in the "liberal" direction.

This is a misrepresentation of UR. (Ultimate Redemption)
And did you have to bring politics into it? - LOL (just kidding, I knew what you meant)

No one enters heaven until they "change..." their "thinking about God".
Here's how it works:

Anyone who has knees to bow and a tongue to speak, in heaven and on earth and under the earth (in the realm of the dead), will whole-heartedly, and without reservation, acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord. No one can say that “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” you will be saved. Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. (the reason for the bodily resurrection) Scriptural support below.

Philippians 2:10-11
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I want you to know that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus be cursed,” and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart
that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

Further reading: (Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10, Revelation 15:4)

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

Rescued One said:
God either KNEW Adam would disobey or PLANNED the fall because He already had planned to send His Son as a Savior for those He would bring to Christ.

We can't give ourselves faith in Christ.

Romans 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Here's a thought. The fingerprints of prior planning are all over this.

Imagine if humankind would never have sinned, ever. (to this day)

At some point, God the Father would need to say to God the Son, "Looks like we'll need to reassign you, and change your title."

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

timothyu said:
Has temptation always been part of the plan?

From a UR perspective, redemption has always been the plan. The all of creation (every created thing) would return to its original state. Adam 2 was sent to pay the consequence of Adam 1. (death)

Here's how it works:

Romans 5:18-19 NIV
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

Blade said:
...the wrath of God. He will not strive with man forever. "And the LORD said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; "

Thanks for your post.

This snippet quoted above led me to a thought.

The Spirit of God would "strive with man forever," if He was maintaining/sustaining a forever burning hell. There would no end to sin. An uncompleted task. Loose ends to tidy up.

Receivedgrace · Oct 11, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for your post.

This snippet quoted above led me to a thought.

The Spirit of God would "strive with man forever," if He was maintaining/sustaining a forever burning hell. There would no end to sin. An uncompleted task. Loose ends to tidy up.

Wrong conclusion. Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire forever burning with the wrath of God.

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

public hermit said:
It is interesting that nothing really changes after they eat from the tree. Presumably, they were already naked and capable of dying. What changes after they eat is their perception of their situation- now their nakedness (mortality?) is percieved as a bad thing. At any rate, I think that aspect of the narrative kind of tracks what you're saying.

Sorry in advance, I am still caught, as it were, between the literal and figurative on this Genesis account.

I like what you are saying here, "... What changes after they eat is their perception of their situation-..."
I find most interesting, the unanswered question from God to Adam, "“Who told you that you were naked? " (Gen 3:11) Who indeed? At the end of chapter two, the perception was, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." (Gen 2:25)

The question for me was, HOW was their perception changed? The narrative presents a whole list of crazy behavior. As I see it, they were literally out of their minds. Running, hiding, sewing leaves together for a covering...

My conclusion on the HOW question is that the act of disobedience gave the enemy of our souls full access to our minds, going forward.

The account indicates that A & E were not even tempted to eat. They had to be deceived by an outside source. Outside of their own minds. And the target for that deception was Eve, who I believe was not present when God gave the command not to eat thereof. If I'm correct, this means that Eve heard about it secondhand from Adam. And what Eve said to the serpent's inquiry is a BIG clue. "You shall not eat from it or touch it, or you will die." (Gen 3:2-3) Wait... where did "... or touch it" come from?

Hmm · Oct 11, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Wrong conclusion. Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire forever burning with the wrath of God.

Hold on! What are you suggesting this means? If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire surely that means that they are destroyed?

Are you saying that hell is cast into the L of F and kind of exists there along with everybody inside forever? If so, what is the point of casting hell into the L.of F? It would make no difference to anything! It would simply make no sense.

UR believes in "hell" as a place/state of temporary correction and so it aligns with the idea that hell is ultimately destroyed. ECT OTOH has no coherent explanation of what this image of hell being thrown in the L of F means, at least none that I've heard.

Saint Steven · Oct 11, 2022

Receivedgrace said:
Wrong conclusion. Death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire forever burning with the wrath of God.

That's a bit of a conundrum. Aren't hell and the LoF somewhat synonymous?
How can hell be thrown into itself? Let's look at the text. The NIV translates (appropriately) "hell" as Hades. (note the capital H) The first sentence in Rev 6:8 below reads; "I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him." What does that tell us?

Revelation 1:18
I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
Revelation 6:8
I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
Revelation 20:13
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.

FineLinen · Oct 11, 2022

Sketcher said:
Also, if universalism is true, then there's no "need" to change our thinking about God. Since we'd all be in Heaven at the end anyway, erroneous thinking about God would be meaningless, whether in the "conservative" direction, or in the "liberal" direction.

Der Alte · Oct 11, 2022

Hmm said:
Hold on! What are you suggesting this means? If death and hell are cast into the Lake of Fire surely that means that they are destroyed?
Are you saying that hell is cast into the L of F and kind of exists there along with everybody inside forever? If so, what is the point of casting hell into the L.of F? It would make no difference to anything! It would simply make no sense.
UR believes in "hell" as a place/state of temporary correction and so it aligns with the idea that hell is ultimately destroyed. ECT OTOH has no coherent explanation of what this image of hell being thrown in the L of F means, at least none that I've heard.

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 'Whoever has an ear should listen to what the Spirit is saying to the Churches. The one who overcomes will not be harmed by the second death.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Rev 20:6 Blessed and ho1y is the one who has part in the first resurrection! Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests” of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Rev 19:20 But the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked the signs in his sight and by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who expressed adoration to his image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.2

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and [they] shall be tormented [plural verb] day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who was a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF.
Three living, sentient, beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 does say death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence. There is a death and hell which are sentient beings and can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

My name for these two sentient beings is, “the angel of death” and “the demon of hell.” Others can feel free to call them whatever they want. The 2 beings are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….Additional verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death.” In vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later, Rev 21:8 says eight groups of the unrighteous; [the]fearful, [the] unbelieving, the abominable, murderers, whoremongers, sorcerers, idolaters and liars “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is [still called] the second death.”
If there is “no more death,” after vs. 4, then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Revelation 22:11
(11) He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

The last chapter of the Bible, Rev. 22:11., 10 more vss. No salvation, no destruction, no death, only “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still.”

Shrewd Manager · Oct 15, 2022

Sure, it should be uncontroversial to say that the Garden of Eden involved issues of trust and naivete. Throughout scripture, God also tells us the earth is flat motionless and enclosed, but still most professing Christians can't even tolerate this self-evident earthly truth. Adamic man is always seduced by serpents, prone to self-determination and idolatry. The Synagogue of Satan has made a very lucrative business out of these follies, in politics, economics, healthcare, education, military and so on, all the kingdoms of the world.

It's certainly a problem that only God can fix, and hell, if the manufacturer needs to order a total recall of defective product under restore warranty, I say take me first.

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2022

Hmm said:
Okay, a clickbait title!

The question really is, did Adam do wrong or is it we who are doing the wrong by misunderstanding God?

The common understanding seems to be that Adam/Adam and Eve/just Eve alone did something wrong which took the whole world into chaos and Jesus was subsequently sent to set things right.

That interpretation makes no sense to me. So I wonder if the Adam and Eve story is not some kind of metaphor instead? Instead of having God change from someone who's angry and wants to punish Adam to someone who forgives us because of Jesus's actions, should we not be thinking instead that it's we who need to change from someone who sees God as Punisher to seeing Him as Forgiver?

It makes more sense to me anyway to think of us having to change rather than God changing.

Looking at it this way, Jesus's sacrifice on the cross is God's way of telling us that we need to sacrifice our old way of thinking about God. That we need to stop thinking that His approval depends on us never sinning but that His forgiveness is unconditional and will always be ours no matter what we do. I remember someone telling me that Jesus would still have died for me if I was the only one living at the time.

So Adam may not have been a universalist but is not the lesson of his story that we should be?

The issue goes far deeper than sin. Sin caused death - "In Adam, all die...." God will not permit dead people into heaven. Jesus came that we might have life. He sets us free from the Law of sin and death. However, it is a choice. He who has the Son has the Life. (1 John 5:12). If you do not have the Son, you are still dead in trespass and sin. It's black and white. God is love but He is also righteous, Holy and Just. He has made provision for the salvation of all mankind. Not all mankind accept God's mercy and grace. They remain under God's wrath (Romans 1:18)

Saint Steven · Nov 21, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
God will not permit dead people into heaven.

How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2022

Shrewd Manager said:
Sure, it should be uncontroversial to say that the Garden of Eden involved issues of trust and naivete. Throughout scripture, God also tells us the earth is flat motionless and enclosed, but still most professing Christians can't even tolerate this self-evident earthly truth. Adamic man is always seduced by serpents, prone to self-determination and idolatry. The Synagogue of Satan has made a very lucrative business out of these follies, in politics, economics, healthcare, education, military and so on, all the kingdoms of the world.

It's certainly a problem that only God can fix, and hell, if the manufacturer needs to order a total recall of defective product under restore warranty, I say take me first.

Another FE proponent? That's sad. It's so obviously a rotating sphere that only the intellectually blind fail to see it.

The problem of humanity has already been resolved. If any man is in Christ, he is a new creation. We are complete in Christ. We do not need to be recalled. We need to learn who we are in Christ and who He is in us. The Kingdom of God will be established on the earth some day, sooner the better. Christ is building His church. He cannot fail. The kingdoms of this world will fall eventually. Again, the sooner the better. I'm 71 so I may not live to see it. But I can pray and obey, which is my sole responsibility.

Aussie Pete · Nov 21, 2022

Saint Steven said:
How did you arrive at that conclusion?

I study God's word.

Saint Steven · Nov 22, 2022

Aussie Pete said:
I study God's word.

Thanks for the glib response.

Please define, "dead people", thanks.

Aussie Pete said:

God will not permit dead people into heaven.

Aussie Pete · Nov 22, 2022

Saint Steven said:
Thanks for the glib response.

Please define, "dead people", thanks.

Aussie Pete said:

God will not permit dead people into heaven.

The dead are all those who have yet to accept Christ. I'm sorry, I thought you knew the Bible. Chapter and verse:
1 Corinthians 15:
"20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him."

God warned Adam that if he disobeyed God's command, he would die. Adam disobeyed. He did not die physically. His soul was still active (mind, emotion and will) but he was filled with fear and hid from God. And that is the condition that all are born into. And unless an individual is born again, that's how they remain.

God shut Adam out of Eden. And man is shut out of heaven now. If God could accept sinners into heaven, there was no need for Christ to die. Sinners won't want to be in heaven anyway. Like Adam and Eve, they hide from God still.

Saint Steven · Nov 22, 2022

Andrew Ambrose said:
I agree with your post. We should learn from the story of Adam. We believe in Jesus as our Savior.

Jesus commanded us to make disciples. As a true follower of Jesus we should work to make disciples. I work as a Global Catalytic Ministries volunteer to transform Muslims worldwide through Jesus Christ through evangelism, discipleship, church planting, leadership development, and compassion ministries.

"Global Catalytic Ministries" ???
Would that make you a catalytic converter? - LOL
(sorry, it was such a good set up)
Did your autotext insert "catalytic" when you meant Catholic?

Was Adam a universalist?

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This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president

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