Was Abraham saved by Grace?

[Frogster]

I don't know why it has to be constrained to Rom 5 and 6, but it is most definitely shown. The divine nature is the image of God in Christ, and we are given this nature through the Spirit (2 Cr 3:18). If one has the Spirit, he is not in the flesh, that is, the old nature (Rom 8:9). The former believers had the Spirit (1 Pe 1:11). Here's Romans 6:3 again:

Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? -Rom 6:3

"As many of us" must include the former believers, unless we want to say that they did not have the nature of God through the Spirit of Christ, i.e. they did not have the Spirit, and that contradicts so many passages I don't even want to get started on that.

A key term here is "united". That shows us that the paradigm of living through Christ is the key to being covered by His death.


I was on the fence for a while with how I read this, but now I'm convinced that this refers to pardon through the cross. The old self/old man that was crucified with Christ, meaning, our old natures by which we ought to be condemned, they are covered by His crucifixion if we live through Him (that means we are Him).

If that is the paradigm we use, it plugs in quite nicely with the model of the Eucharist. There are two components: body and blood representing pardon and life. If we have found life through Him, through faith on Him, we have found pardon through Him. Remember, Jesus didn't say believe on the cross, He said: "he that believes on Me has eternal life" (jhn 6:47).

tell ya, i don't know how u would reconcile your view, about those in the past, and it was also about Abe in 11, with this?

Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

the perfect , after the cross.

 

[Nanopants]

tell ya, i don't know how u would reconcile your view, about those in the past, and it was also about Abe in 11, with this?

Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.

the perfect , after the cross.

Well, the question is what is that something that is better which has been given to us (now) and not to them (in their day)? It can't be the divine nature that Paul is speaking about because we see in verse 4 that Abel obtained witness that he was righteous through faith (and that corresponds to Paul's numerous examples of his view regarding Abraham).

What is the promise then? Vs 14 and 15 show us that these people of faith desired a homeland, a city whose "builder and maker is God" (verse 10), and verse 16 shows us that God has prepared it for them. You can't have a city without citizens. Apart from us (the innumerable citizens), the promise of a heavenly kingdom (12, 13) could not be completed.

 

[brevis]

The books of Paul are part of Holy Scripture.

(Just a friendly reminder)

 

[Frogster]

Well, the question is what is that something that is better which has been given to us (now) and not to them (in their day)? It can't be the divine nature that Paul is speaking about because we see in verse 4 that Abel obtained witness that he was righteous through faith (and that corresponds to Paul's numerous examples of his view regarding Abraham).

What is the promise then? Vs 14 and 15 show us that these people of faith desired a homeland, a city whose "builder and maker is God" (verse 10), and verse 16 shows us that God has prepared it for them. You can't have a city without citizens. Apart from us (the innumerable citizens), the promise of a heavenly kingdom (12, 13) could not be completed.

But the perfect, in the verse posted, would be until the cross, and that was not intil a certain time.


Hebrews 11:39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.



7;11 Now if perfection had been attainable through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need would there have been for another priest to arise after the order of Melchizedek, rather than one named after the order of Aaron?

 

[ForceofTime]

But the perfect, in the verse posted, would be until the cross, and that was not until a certain time.

Hi, Frogster. Sorry to stick my nose in again ; but I think I understand better what you were talking about in the other thread, as I agree completely with this.

However, I may have missed something. The perfect would be until the cross...on earth; but what about in Heaven? For example, did Moses and Elijah have to wait hundreds of years in Heaven until they beheld the face of Jesus in the Transfiguration?

Anyway, thanks!

 

[Frogster]

Hi, Frogster. Sorry to stick my nose in again ; but I think I understand better what you were talking about in the other thread, as I agree completely with this.

However, I may have missed something. The perfect would be until the cross...on earth; but what about in Heaven? For example, did Moses and Elijah have to wait hundreds of years in Heaven until they beheld the face of Jesus in the Transfiguration?

Anyway, thanks!

Glad you're here ...well, hmmmm...the clear overt text says that perfection did not come until the cross in Hebrews and Romans.

Since Jesus had not passed through the heavens until a certain time, how could others go into it?

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Until the forunner, the first, no one went in.

Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

So again we see that until the cross, a dimension seems to have been closed. Samuel came back from where?

Good to see ya, deep stuff for sure....

 

[Frogster]

The books of Paul are part of Holy Scripture.

(Just a friendly reminder)

Amen.

 

[Frogster]

In other words, as far as the perfection of Ot saints, and the Hebrews 11 verse, and the old priesthood of 7:11 ending to bring in the perfection, it seems to be that until the foreunner came of 6:20, and the cross, the curtain torn, his flesh on the cross, no one could have been perfected.


Hebrews 10:19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy places by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the new and living way that he opened for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God,

 

[ForceofTime]

Glad you're here ...well, hmmmm...the clear overt text says that perfection did not come until the cross in Hebrews and Romans.

Since Jesus had not passed through the heavens until a certain time, how could others go into it?

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Until the forunner, the first, no one went in.

Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

So again we see that until the cross, a dimension seems to have been closed. Samuel came back from where?

Good to see ya, deep stuff for sure....

Interesting. I definitely agree with this with relation to the earth, but I see what you mean as it pertains to Heaven.

Your translation of Hebrews 4:14 is quite curious, I never came across that word 'through' (KJV is 'into'). The Greek word for that (διεληλυθοτ&#945 is very provocative! Never would have noticed that before. Feels like I'm going down the rabbit hole now!

Thanks for the reply, God bless!

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Interesting. I definitely agree with this with relation to the earth, but I see what you mean as it pertains to Heaven.

Your translation of Hebrews 4:14 is quite curious, I never came across that word 'through' (KJV is 'into'). The Greek word for that (διεληλυθοτ&#945 is very provocative! Never would have noticed that before. Feels like I'm going down the rabbit hole now!

Thanks for the reply, God bless!

Yeah....it kinda frazzled me a bit also

http://www.christianforums.com/t7426625-34/#post53996837
Hebrews 4:14

Textus Rec.) Hebrews 4:14 econteV oun arcierea megan dielhluqota touV ouranouV ihsoun ton uion tou qeou kratwmen thV omologiaV

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G1330 matches the Greek διέρχομαι (dierchomai), which occurs 46 times in 42 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

1) to go through, pass through
a) to go, walk, journey, pass through a place
b) to travel the road which leads through a place, go, pass, travel through a region

2) to go different places
a) of people, to go abroad
b) of a report, to spread, go abroad

 

[Frogster]

Interesting. I definitely agree with this with relation to the earth, but I see what you mean as it pertains to Heaven.

Your translation of Hebrews 4:14 is quite curious, I never came across that word 'through' (KJV is 'into'). The Greek word for that (διεληλυθοτ&#945 is very provocative! Never would have noticed that before. Feels like I'm going down the rabbit hole now!

Thanks for the reply, God bless!

well...more like a frog pond.

In a nutshell, why would we think that some OT saints, were walking downtown near the cafeteria, and all of the sudden, they received a new nature? they all of the sudden did not want law righeousness, but experienced resurrection power of phil 3, all before the resurrection came? which was the new man, which is the grace reign.


In other words, rom 6 is a true experience of being raised in Christ, so when do we think, at what point in a certain individuals life in the OT pre or post law, that romans 6 experience took place? How could they have the new man yet, where they knew the difference of a previous mode, to a new mode, being born again.

rib-it..fun chatting...

 

[ForceofTime]

well...more like a frog pond.

In a nutshell, why would we think that some OT saints, were walking downtown near the cafeteria, and all of the sudden, they received a new nature? they all of the sudden did not want law righeousness, but experienced resurrection power of phil 3, all before the resurrection came? which was the new man, which is the grace reign.


In other words, rom 6 is a true experience of being raised in Christ, so when do we think, at what point in a certain individuals life in the OT pre or post law, that romans 6 experience took place? How could they have the new man yet, where they knew the difference of a previous mode, to a new mode, being born again.

rib-it..fun chatting...

Well, I can think of a couple that could possibly fit that description; but that is neither here nor there since I totally agree with you as the cross relates to the earth. Where I am not so sure is as it pertains to Heaven; but your argument has opened my mind to other possibilities that I have not considered before and have now come to the belief that my former view of Heaven was really quite two dimensional.

Have a good day, Frogster!

 

[Nanopants]

well...more like a frog pond.

In a nutshell, why would we think that some OT saints, were walking downtown near the cafeteria, and all of the sudden, they received a new nature? they all of the sudden did not want law righeousness, but experienced resurrection power of phil 3, all before the resurrection came? which was the new man, which is the grace reign.


In other words, rom 6 is a true experience of being raised in Christ, so when do we think, at what point in a certain individuals life in the OT pre or post law, that romans 6 experience took place? How could they have the new man yet, where they knew the difference of a previous mode, to a new mode, being born again.

rib-it..fun chatting...

Because they had faith! We're told over and over again that the righteous live by their faith, and that is how we receive the divine nature. That was the whole point of Heb 11. Actually, the last verse of ch 10 says:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. -Heb 10:39

And then it goes into describing the faith of the former believers. If they did not receive the divine nature through faith, which is the righteousness apart from the law (Rom 3:21,22 and Phil 3:9), then neither are we saved through faith.

If that entire message is invalidated by one ambiguous word at the end of the chapter, then we should throw out the whole chapter. Heck, why stop there, we may as well throw out half of the NT.

 

[ForceofTime]

Because they had faith! We're told over and over again that the righteous live by their faith, and that is how we receive the divine nature. That was the whole point of Heb 11. Actually, the last verse of ch 10 says:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. -Heb 10:39

And then it goes into describing the faith of the former believers. If they did not receive the divine nature through faith, which is the righteousness apart from the law (Rom 3:21,22), then neither are we saved through faith.

If that entire message is invalidated by one ambiguous word at the end of the chapter, then we should throw out the whole chapter. Heck, why stop there, we may as well throw out half of the NT.

I think what is in dispute is not that they had faith, but to what degree.

For instance, do you feel that the divine nature that was received by Abraham to be of the same degree as that which was received by Paul while they were on earth?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Glad you're here ...well, hmmmm...the clear overt text says that perfection did not come until the cross in Hebrews and Romans.

Since Jesus had not passed through the heavens until a certain time, how could others go into it?

Hebrews 4:14
Since then we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession.

Until the forunner, the first, no one went in.

Hebrews 6:20 where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

So again we see that until the cross, a dimension seems to have been closed. Samuel came back from where?

Good to see ya, deep stuff for sure....

The death and ressurection of the Lord ( ie the baptism that saves ) goes back in time as well as forward . As Abraham prophesied and laid his hope , "the Lord will provide the sacrifice" and his knowing that the Lord can raise from the dead . Abe's hope in the ressurection saved him as our hope for the Day of Judgement will save us .

 

[Frogster]

Well, I can think of a couple that could possibly fit that description; but that is neither here nor there since I totally agree with you as the cross relates to the earth. Where I am not so sure is as it pertains to Heaven; but your argument has opened my mind to other possibilities that I have not considered before and have now come to the belief that my former view of Heaven was really quite two dimensional.

Have a good day, Frogster!

I understand what u mean. About the description of a couple. It is fascinating for sure.

You have a great day too bro, I'm blessed that u r here!

 

[Frogster]

I think what is in dispute is not that they had faith, but to what degree.

For instance, do you feel that the divine nature that was received by Abraham to be of the same degree as that which was received by Paul while they were on earth?

That's exactly what I mean, to me the true grace of 5-6 was the new man given to us, being in the second adam, just like how we used to be in the first, totally dead in the first death realm, totally alive in the next realm, raised into Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Well, I can think of a couple that could possibly fit that description; but that is neither here nor there since I totally agree with you as the cross relates to the earth. Where I am not so sure is as it pertains to Heaven; but your argument has opened my mind to other possibilities that I have not considered before and have now come to the belief that my former view of Heaven was really quite two dimensional.

Have a good day, Frogster!

How did the OC Hebrews/Jews view it?

Isaiah 65:17 That behold Me! Creating new heavens and a new land,
and not shall be remembered the former ones, and not they ascend on heart

Matthew 5:18 "For amen I am saying to ye, till ever may be passing away the heaven and the land, one jot or one tittle not no may be passing away from the Law till ever all may be becoming/genhtai <1096> (5638)"
[Isaiah 65:17,18/Luke 16:17/Reve 21:1]

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new land.
For the first heaven and the first land pass away
and the sea not is still..........

 

[Frogster]

Because they had faith! We're told over and over again that the righteous live by their faith, and that is how we receive the divine nature. That was the whole point of Heb 11. Actually, the last verse of ch 10 says:

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. -Heb 10:39

And then it goes into describing the faith of the former believers. If they did not receive the divine nature through faith, which is the righteousness apart from the law (Rom 3:21,22 and Phil 3:9), then neither are we saved through faith.

If that entire message is invalidated by one ambiguous word at the end of the chapter, then we should throw out the whole chapter. Heck, why stop there, we may as well throw out half of the NT.

welp, Hebrews is quite clear, they were not perfected yet.

Besides, the just shall live by faith, was not until the gospel era, rom 1:17. Don't forget 3;21...BUT NOW..it was revealed....the righteousness of faith.

Read 1:18 after 1:17, the wrath was presently being revealed at the same time, so that shows that until the gospel era, only Adam was king..but now..3:21.

 

[Nanopants]

I think what is in dispute is not that they had faith, but to what degree.

For instance, do you feel that the divine nature that was received by Abraham to be of the same degree as that which was received by Paul while they were on earth?

[There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all. But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. -Eph 4:5-7

Yes, unless we want to say that Abraham received some other faith, and by extension, some other spirit or some other lord. If not, then there is no difference.

The only difference between they and us was the knowledge of the revelation of the mystery of the Gospel, which was hidden before Christ's ministry (1 Cr 2:7,8).

The revelation of Christ wasn't something that was invented by God, as if He needed a solution to fix a problem, it was ordained from an eternal perspective (Rev 13:8). From that perspective, nothing changed.