Warren Jeffs vs Joseph Smith

[buddy mack]

In the news today is the on going saga about Warren Jeffs the fugitive leader and Prohet of a religious group calling themselves Latter day Saints. This group of LDS are Believers of the founding Prophet Jospeh Smith and the Book of Mormon and more important the teachings of polygamy.
So here are my questions- Who is more like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young? the current Prophet of the LDS Church of Salt Lake City, or Warren Jeffs?
Next, what are the differences between Warren Jeffs and Joseph Smith. The way i see it both claim to be Prophets, seer'ers and leaders of Mormons. Second, both were/are in trouble with the LAW. Both pratice Polygamy. Both men built temples. So how does a TBM decide which of these men to follow?

 

[christopher123]

I think that when we see people like Jeffs or the Allreds or even people like the Laffertys (sp?), we are seeing pure and simple the fruits of Joseph Smith and mormonism.

They certainly follow Smith and BY more closely than the current group.


Chris <><

 

[Wrigley]

I think that when we see people like Jeffs or the Allreds or even people like the Laffertys (sp?), we are seeing pure and simple the fruits of Joseph Smith and mormonism.

They certainly follow Smith and BY more closely than the current group.


Chris <><

I'm sure those groups would say that the keys were taken from the mormon church.

 

[salt_of_the_earth]

Why is mormonism even included in a Christian discussion page? Jesus is just one God among many to them.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

I think Hinckley and Jeffs should duke it out for succession rights. Good ole fisticuffs.

 

[Apex]

Why is mormonism even included in a Christian discussion page? Jesus is just one God among many to them.

Fourtunatly you dont decide who and what is christian.

 

[Swart]

So how does a TBM decide which of these men to follow?

I'd ask my wife if she wanted to up and move to Hilldale (or wherever they are now) so we can live a communal agrarian lifestyle and take on a couple more wives...

....however, I still recovering from the last time I sounded her out about PM.

ObHum: Some friends of ours planned a temple trip with another couple in our area. At the last moment, the husband of the other couple was called in for work, but his wife (Linda) decided she still wanted to go, so the three of them went off to the temple.

On arriving at the temple, my friend met up with someone he hadn't seen for nearly twenty years, before he was married. He introduced his wife by saying "This is my wife, Stephanie." and then indicated Linda and said "And this is my other wife, Linda."

Apparantly the three second look of horror on the other man's face before he realised it was a joke was priceless!

 

[Blackmarch]

I think that when we see people like Jeffs or the Allreds or even people like the Laffertys (sp?), we are seeing pure and simple the fruits of Joseph Smith and mormonism.

They certainly follow Smith and BY more closely than the current group.


Chris <><

And the inquisition the fruits of christiandom...
riiiggghhht

 

[logichopper]

I think, especially with the benefit of hindsight to Joseph Smith, there are so many similarities between Jeffs and Smith.

I also believe the public reaction and perception towards the two of them are/were almost identical. But that should not be surprising, as they are were both leading their followers in an identical manner, using techniques, claims and practices that had virtually the same public reaction, and the same amount of truth (ie, when compared to the claim) both then and now.

Both of them are/were breaking the law, both were/are fugitives from the law, both were/are supposedly doing it in the name of their god, and Jeffs, as did Smith, could very well bring on his own tragic death.

But what I find a bit perplexing is this:

If there were any group existing today that should, by their own history, have sympathy and compassion for Jeffs and the perseverance of his beliefs, it should be the lds church. Yet they are the ones who want to distance themselves as far as they can from him and his followers. Ironic!

Really, are there any differences between Smith and Jeffs when you look at the details???

 

[Swart]

I think, especially with the benefit of hindsight to Joseph Smith, there are so many similarities between Jeffs and Smith.

I also believe the public reaction and perception towards the two of them are/were almost identical. But that should not be surprising, as they are were both leading their followers in an identical manner, using techniques, claims and practices that had virtually the same public reaction, and the same amount of truth (ie, when compared to the claim) both then and now.

Both of them are/were breaking the law, both were/are fugitives from the law, both were/are supposedly doing it in the name of their god, and Jeffs, as did Smith, could very well bring on his own tragic death.

But what I find a bit perplexing is this:

If there were any group existing today that should, by their own history, have sympathy and compassion for Jeffs and the perseverance of his beliefs, it should be the lds church. Yet they are the ones who want to distance themselves as far as they can from him and his followers. Ironic!

Really, are there any differences between Smith and Jeffs when you look at the details???

3. I[SIZE=-1]RRESPONSIBLE[/SIZE] S[SIZE=-1]WEEPING[/SIZE] G[SIZE=-1]ENERALIZATIONS.[/SIZE]
Extremists tend to make sweeping claims or judgments on little or no evidence, and they have a tendency to confuse similarity with sameness. That is, they assume that because two (or more) things, events, or persons are alike in some respects, they must be alike in most respects. The sloppy use of analogy is a treacherous form of logic and has a high potential for false conclusions.

source


Those who have inadequate proof for their asserions will often resort to using this kind of tactic as a form of character assasination. It was used during Gulf War 2 to attempt to compare George W. Bush with Adolf Hitler

War making and saber rattling is not the only similarity of Bush to Hitler. The German leader, along with Joseph Goebbels, was also a master of propaganda. The Bush administration, obviously putting its propaganda arm, the White house Office of Global Communications, into full gear, convinced nine European leaders to take out an ad, billed as an 'article," in several European newspapers supporting the Bush administration. Some of the usual suspects signed on to the article, including Tony Blair, who, in addition to Barney and Spot, is Bush's favorite lap dog. But it is interesting to point out some of the other leaders who backed Bush. They include the Prime Ministers of Poland and Hungary and President Vaclav Havel of the Czech Republic. These countries, which joined NATO a few years ago with the provision that they buy billions of dollars of American warplanes, tanks, and other hardware, are virtual subsidiaries of America's military-industrial complex.

http://www.counterpunch.org/madsen01312003.html

Hopefully, by giving a paired example you can see the baseless nature of comparisons such as this.

 

[logichopper]

3. I[SIZE=-1]RRESPONSIBLE[/SIZE] S[SIZE=-1]WEEPING[/SIZE] G[SIZE=-1]ENERALIZATIONS.[/SIZE]
Extremists tend to make sweeping claims or judgments on little or no evidence, and they have a tendency to confuse similarity with sameness. That is, they assume that because two (or more) things, events, or persons are alike in some respects, they must be alike in most respects. The sloppy use of analogy is a treacherous form of logic and has a high potential for false conclusions.

source


Those who have inadequate proof for their asserions will often resort to using this kind of tactic as a form of character assasination. It was used during Gulf War 2 to attempt to compare George W. Bush with Adolf Hitler



Hopefully, by giving a paired example you can see the baseless nature of comparisons such as this.

In addition to the "Specific Similarities" already provied, both Smith and Jeffs also have/had thier people follow the Book of Mormon and teach/taught the socially and spiritually abominable practice of polygamy was God's command.

Smith and Jeffs both seek/sought protection from society, Smith through his Nauvoo legion, and Jeffs through is fortified and isolated compounds.

Both Smith and Jeffs were/are obvious outcasts to their respective societies as evidenced by the respective reactions of the public to their actions.

As opposed to avoiding the subject of the thread by way of contending "sweeping generalizations" (which has no merit), perhaps those who think that there are significant "specific" differences between Smith and Jeffs would elaborate on such specifics to demonstrate their point!

Hopefully by providing "specific differences", the "specific similarities" provided above could demonstrate how or why these two men are different.

 

[buddy mack]

I'd ask my wife if she wanted to up and move to Hilldale (or wherever they are now) so we can live a communal agrarian lifestyle and take on a couple more wives...

....however, I still recovering from the last time I sounded her out about PM.

ObHum: Some friends of ours planned a temple trip with another couple in our area. At the last moment, the husband of the other couple was called in for work, but his wife (Linda) decided she still wanted to go, so the three of them went off to the temple.

On arriving at the temple, my friend met up with someone he hadn't seen for nearly twenty years, before he was married. He introduced his wife by saying "This is my wife, Stephanie." and then indicated Linda and said "And this is my other wife, Linda."

Apparantly the three second look of horror on the other man's face before he realised it was a joke was priceless!

Oh that's right my wife wears the pants in our family

 

[buddy mack]

And the inquisition the fruits of christiandom...
riiiggghhht

we wont hav our spys hunting you down for questioning.
Happy B-day

 

[Apex]

In addition to the "Specific Similarities" already provied, both Smith and Jeffs also have/had thier people follow the Book of Mormon and teach/taught the socially and spiritually abominable practice of polygamy was God's command.

Smith and Jeffs both seek/sought protection from society, Smith through his Nauvoo legion, and Jeffs through is fortified and isolated compounds.

Both Smith and Jeffs were/are obvious outcasts to their respective societies as evidenced by the respective reactions of the public to their actions.

As opposed to avoiding the subject of the thread by way of contending "sweeping generalizations" (which has no merit), perhaps those who think that there are significant "specific" differences between Smith and Jeffs would elaborate on such specifics to demonstrate their point!

Hopefully by providing "specific differences", the "specific similarities" provided above could demonstrate how or why these two men are different.

Perhaps you should check out this article that appeared in my school news paper, Children raised in religious families have little choice, that draws its conclusions (religion and nazism are the same) in the exact same way you are drawing your conclusions.

 

[Blackmarch]

we wont hav our spys hunting you down for questioning.
Happy B-day

Uh oh...

 

[logichopper]

Perhaps you should check out this article that appeared in my school news paper, Children raised in religious families have little choice, that draws its conclusions (religion and nazism are the same) in the exact same way you are drawing your conclusions.

Apex,

Thanks for the link to the article. Candidly though, I don't see its relevance to the topic of this thread.

However, if you find significant differences between the lifestyles, missions and objectives of Joseph Smith and Warren Jeffs, you could specifically elaborate on them here.

As I've already provided the striking similialities above, I would love to here from you, and others, what you believe the "specific" differences are. Surely with as much as the mormon church tries to distance itself from the FLDS and the "prophet" Jeffs, there must be some specific differences between he and Joseph Smith.

If you choose not to specify any differences, I will assume you are in agreement with the similarities of these two "self-proclaimed prophets".

 

[Deraj]

Why is mormonism even included in a Christian discussion page? Jesus is just one God among many to them.

Ouch. That was arrogant and painful. Go back to your "orthodox" christians only page, if you are going to express that kind of view here, because it isn't contributing much to the discussion and it isn't helping with the atmosphere here either.

We only worship One God. That is Heavenly Father, His Son Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost. These are three beings who work for the same purpose and will, which is the will of the Father. Therefore they are one God.
We are on the "unorthodox" theology page, because people like to have boundaries between what is "orthodox" and what is not. Who is really Christian and who is not. We follow the Bible, just as you do. We follow the Saviour and God's Word, just as you do, so who are you to decide who is Christian and who is not?

Now to the topic of the thread. The current presiding apostle of the LDS Church is arguably more like JS and BY, as he has the keys and authority of the Kingdom of God on this earth, whereas, arguably, Warren Jeffs doesn't. Joseph Smith, was in trouble with the law, because of false allegations against him. He believed in following the law of the land and so do the presidents of the Church, who came after him, and it is because of this, that once there was no more need for polygamy to sustain widows and women who could not sustain themselves, in a time when the people were being persecuted and driven from their homes, that polygamy was not allowed in the Church anymore, as it was against the law of the land.

Logichopper: would you count this as a non-answer?

 

[logichopper]

The current presiding apostle of the LDS Church is arguably more like JS and BY, as he has the keys and authority of the Kingdom of God on this earth, whereas, arguably, Warren Jeffs doesn't.

Warren Jeffs and his followers "claim" that he, as the prophet of the one true church, has the keys and authority passed on by Joseph Smith. The claim made by Warren Jeffs is no "less" substantiated than that made by Hinckley.

Accordingly, this is much more of a similarity between Smith and Jeffs than it is a difference.

He believed in following the law of the land and so do the presidents of the Church, who came after him, and it is because of this, that once there was no more need for polygamy to sustain widows and women who could not sustain themselves, in a time when the people were being persecuted and driven from their homes, that polygamy was not allowed in the Church anymore, as it was against the law of the land.

Joseph Smith was actually in violation of the laws of the land as is Jeffs. Polygamy was against the law and in violation of Illinois statues while being practiced by Smith, just as it is by Jeffs. [If you were not aware of this statute in Illinois, I would be more than happy to provide you a copy of it upon request.] As the D&C's commanded the saints to "obey" the laws of the land at that time, Smith was also in violation of the mormon church laws.

[Additionally, the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants of the lds church directly and specifically prohibited the practice of polygamy as did the statements and teachings of Joseph Smith up to his death.]

Furthermore, Smith was in violation of the law in ordering the destruction of the Expositor printing press as this was both a violation of Illinois law as well as a vilation of the Nauvoo Charter. [Again, sources provided upon request as it appears you may not have been aware of this either.] Jeffs is in violation of the law in his practices as well. Jeffs is currently on the run from the law just as Smith's initial move was to flee from the law and Nauvoo before being convinced be his wife to return and face the consequences.

Logichopper: would you count this as a non-answer?

No, definately not a "non-answer. But I think after the specifics provided above, your answer has some flawed reasoning based on actual facts and, IMHO, the logical and reasonable application of the facts. I appreciate the direct response but I think it does more to demonstrate the striking similarities between Smith and Jeffs. I also think it is why other lds posters would rather not attempt to provide “specific differences” as I’m not sure there really are any.

 

[newyorksaint]

Warren Jeffs and his followers "claim" that he, as the prophet of the one true church, has the keys and authority passed on by Joseph Smith. The claim made by Warren Jeffs is no "less" substantiated than that made by Hinckley.

Accordingly, this is much more of a similarity between Smith and Jeffs than it is a difference.



Joseph Smith was actually in violation of the laws of the land as is Jeffs. Polygamy was against the law and in violation of Illinois statues while being practiced by Smith, just as it is by Jeffs. [If you were not aware of this statute in Illinois, I would be more than happy to provide you a copy of it upon request.] As the D&C's commanded the saints to "obey" the laws of the land at that time, Smith was also in violation of the mormon church laws.

[Additionally, the 1835 Doctrine and Covenants of the lds church directly and specifically prohibited the practice of polygamy as did the statements and teachings of Joseph Smith up to his death.]

Furthermore, Smith was in violation of the law in ordering the destruction of the Expositor printing press as this was both a violation of Illinois law as well as a vilation of the Nauvoo Charter. [Again, sources provided upon request as it appears you may not have been aware of this either.] Jeffs is in violation of the law in his practices as well. Jeffs is currently on the run from the law just as Smith's initial move was to flee from the law and Nauvoo before being convinced be his wife to return and face the consequences.



No, definately not a "non-answer. But I think after the specifics provided above, your answer has some flawed reasoning based on actual facts and, IMHO, the logical and reasonable application of the facts. I appreciate the direct response but I think it does more to demonstrate the striking similarities between Smith and Jeffs. I also think it is why other lds posters would rather not attempt to provide “specific differences” as I’m not sure there really are any.

Another difference-

You say a similarity is that Jeff uses the Book of Mormon. Well, he didn't translate it-Joseph Smith did. Not much of a difference, but its there.

 

[logichopper]

Another difference-

You say a similarity is that Jeff uses the Book of Mormon. Well, he didn't translate it-Joseph Smith did. Not much of a difference, but its there.

Astute observation. Perhaps another equally applicable one would be that Jeffs is a little taller than Smith by all historical accounts.