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Warez, MP3s, Cracking, Hacking

PulpitFiction

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bethinker said:
First of all, I admit that I'm into all of the above.

Do you think that it is inappropriate for a Christian to have anything to do with those, assuming that they are used in a non-profit basis?

Isn't theft against one of the ten commandments?
 
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psychedelicist

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Cracking and hacking are 2 different things. "hacking" is what geeks like me do to make computers work more efficiently, it harms no ones computer and is like a tune up for your computer. "cracking" is when wannabee criminals break into other peoples computers and stuff like that. In that case there is a victim here. For some reason most people refer to hacking as cracking and thus the "good" hackers (he ones in my first example) often get confused for crackers.

But I'm not geek enough to know what warez are though I've heard it before. Just what exactly are they?

As for file sharing, I'm sure the music industry will survive it somehow. Even though it technically isn't right.
 
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Dark_Lite

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bethinker said:
First of all, I admit that I'm into all of the above.

Do you think that it is inappropriate for a Christian to have anything to do with those, assuming that they are used in a non-profit basis?

Depends on the laws of the country... In most countries it's illegal.

.......So... yeah.
 
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seebs

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As the maintainer of the Hacker FAQ, I'm pretty sure that hacking is fine, but breaking into other peoples' computers without authorization is not so fine.

As to the question of file-sharing: I think authors and musicians have a moral right to restrict such things. On the other hand, I think it is just plain stupid of them to object to people copying songs or books; all of the available data points suggest that permitting free copying increases sales.
 
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MoonlessNight

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Cracking and hacking are 2 different things. "hacking" is what geeks like me do to make computers work more efficiently, it harms no ones computer and is like a tune up for your computer. "cracking" is when wannabee criminals break into other peoples computers and stuff like that. In that case there is a victim here. For some reason most people refer to hacking as cracking and thus the "good" hackers (he ones in my first example) often get confused for crackers.

You are fighting a losing battle with these definitions. I know that that's how it was originally, but the common usage of "hacking" has referred to a malicious activity for quite some time now. It's unfortunate, but there's pretty much no hope of hacking being considered "good" in the mainstream anytime soon.

But I'm not geek enough to know what warez are though I've heard it before. Just what exactly are they?

Warez is a general term for, well, illegal stuff you can download. This could include movies but generally refers to pirated software, rom (or other types) images of console games, or patches ("cracks") or altered exe files that allow one to play a commerical game without the cd in the drive. Abandonware (software that is essentially pirated but is no longer sold or availible) is considered by some to not be a type of warez, but it technically counts.
 
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psychedelicist

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MoonlessNight said:
You are fighting a losing battle with these definitions. I know that that's how it was originally, but the common usage of "hacking" has referred to a malicious activity for quite some time now. It's unfortunate, but there's pretty much no hope of hacking being considered "good" in the mainstream anytime soon.

Yeah, I know. Just wanted to explain myself before people jumped down my throat for my being a hacker without actually knowing what a hacker is. :)

Warez is a general term for, well, illegal stuff you can download. This could include movies but generally refers to pirated software, rom (or other types) images of console games, or patches ("cracks") or altered exe files that allow one to play a commerical game without the cd in the drive. Abandonware (software that is essentially pirated but is no longer sold or availible) is considered by some to not be a type of warez, but it technically counts.

Ah. That makes sense. I myself actually used to make a profit off this, downoading movies and games, burning them, and selling them for like 3$ a CD. But then my conscience got the best of me. Stupid conscience, I was making a load of money, too.;)
 
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Lifesaver

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I will make a comment on MP3 and all kinds of file-sharing and copying, for that matter.

I can't see absolutely any reason why they should be deemed immoral.
Let's say one really enjoys Coca-Cola. One day he decides to make his own drink. So he buys the products, sets up the necessary machines, mixes them up, and produces a homemade Coke; he then drinks it.
No-one would ever say he did something immoral. He certainly did not steal anything at all from the Coca-Cola Company.

Now, another example closer to file-sharing. The same individual thinks the Mona Lisa by D'avinci a very beautiful painting. So he buys a screen, a brush and paints, with which he paints a precise copy of the artwork, which he proceeds to hang on his wall. Has he stolen the painting? Certainly not, as it is still there in the Louvre.
Now, suppose this man lacks the skill to make a good copy of the Mona Lisa. So, instead of painting it himself, he programs a machine to do it, with all the precision of modern technology.
Again, no theft has taken place. It doesn't matter whether the painting is centuries-old or just done; in either case, the artist or those who hold the rights to the painting have absolutely no claims of property over the man's copy of the painting, which he produced out of materials he himself owned.

The same holds for MP3s. No-one is stealing anything. The individual who gets one is making a copy for himself, with materials he owns (in this case, the computer).

Suppose one gets many songs from file-sharing and burns his own CD, which he listens in his house or car. Some will say that he is listening to a stolen product. But if it is stolen, who was it stolen from? The answer will be either recording company, artist or whoever holds the rights to the songs, or perhaps a combination of them.
Well, when something is stolen and has not been destroyed, it is only right to give it back to its rightful owner. But if the man in question gives his CD "back" to one of the parties above, what is the final situation? The party that got this CD was not restituted of anything they lost; instead, they have more than they have ever produced; the recording company has got one extra CD they never made or bought.
It is true, they payed for the recording; but the recording was not stolen when this CD was burnt; rather, a copy of it was made. And to make a copy is not at all like stealing.

In the Middle Ages, it was the freedom with which people copied works from one another (or from older sources) that guaranteed we would have such a large collection of works from before the invention of the printing press.

What is indeed wrong is to take credit for what was not made by ourselves, or to profit from the distribution of said ideas (these profits are rightly the property of the recording company, but not a copy which it didn't make). But to make a copy in no way violates anyone's property rights.

"But what if you were a musician? Would you like people to get your songs for free?" This question is, strictly speaking, irrelevant, but if people really want an answer, here it is:
Nowadays I think I would have no problem with it. My main objective when writing or composing would be to reach many people, and file-sharing is a step in that direction. However, once I got into the business, and my livelihood depended on the people's purchasing my material from the official distributors, my mind may change. Still, even though I would prefer to receive money, would I be justified in claiming that those who copied my work (or who copied copies of my work) were stealing? Not at all.

Last, there are some who will argue thus: "file-sharing is against the law. Therefore, it is immoral to do it." I do not attempt to answer this argument by now, but only to make a question to those who defend this line of thinking: if the only reason why this is immoral is because the law forbids it, should the law have forbidden it in the first place?
 
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Kvikklunsj

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Lifesaver said:
"But what if you were a musician? Would you like people to get your songs for free?" This question is, strictly speaking, irrelevant, but if people really want an answer, here it is:
Nowadays I think I would have no problem with it. My main objective when writing or composing would be to reach many people, and file-sharing is a step in that direction. However, once I got into the business, and my livelihood depended on the people's purchasing my material from the official distributors, my mind may change. Still, even though I would prefer to receive money, would I be justified in claiming that those who copied my work (or who copied copies of my work) were stealing? Not at all.

I agree. There's a difference between stealing and copyright infringement.
 
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bethinker

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I practice all of the above for many years now, so let me give some definitions as they are in the underground scene and clarify some points.

Warez:
Any kind of commercial and copyrighted stuff that can be acquired in different ways than buying it. This includes but is not limited to Software, Movies, Music, Pictures, Databases (e.g. Satellite images), etc.

Hacking:
Using real and legal protocols (documented or not), in such a way that will give you access to Warez and/or other stuff that you’re not supposed to have access to. Hacking most of the times has to do with Network Intrusion.

Cracking:
It ALWAYS has to do with Software (commercial or not), and how you can get a piece of compiled binary code and make it behave in different ways that it was first intended by the coders. This includes but is not limited to Bypassing Software Limits (such as Evaluation Versions limits, Demo Programs limits, Time Trials, NoCD patches etc.)

Reverse Engineering:
Is the ART of:
Using Hacking in order to penetrate somewhere (e.g. to a building or a network) in order to tighten its security (some times corporations pay people to do so).
Using Cracking in order to bypass copy protections and make a program work better (e.g. why should it waste the CD drive to check if the CD is a real copy, when it can run without it?)

MP3s are included in definition of Warez.

Also take a look at this guy:
johnny.ihackstuff.com
in his bio (and even in his books) he always includes something like this:
Who's johnny?

First and foremost, I am a committed Christian, a follower of Christ. I'm far from perfect, but I try to live my life in a way that provides a true reflection of God's love for mankind.

Now that we have the definitions, give me your thoughts.

@Lifesaver: I like the way you think ;)
 
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seebs

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Bethinker: The kind of "hacking" you refer to is just cracking. The relationship is that between composing music and file-sharing.

Real hackers invent new stuff. Because this is hard, lots of script kiddies just go around breaking into stuff, and call themselves "hackers" because they don't know any better.

The Hacker FAQ addresses this in question 0.0.
 
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""

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Well, we're not supposed to steal. I'm not condemning you (I can't... I'd have to condemn myself. Though I no longer do it.) and I'm not condoning it. I think that if you want to know the answer, you must search your own heart, and ask God to show you if it's wrong. Christian to Christian, as I see that little cross up there next to your name: God will show you if you're doing something you shouldn't be doing. Then the ball is in your court.

Besides, I agree with seebs on the inventing issue. It's more fun anyway.

Now music.... on the other hand: I was in full support of collecting it until they handed down the ruling that could send fine us or send us to jail. So, hrmph... I give up on that issue. I still think it's ludicrous, because it's the same as walking next door to your neighbors place and saying "hey, that's a cool cd", and then they make you a copy of it. I see nothing illegal in that. I'm not the judge here though, so I'm not offering advice.
 
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S

Silent Bob

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bethinker said:
Now that we have the definitions, give me your thoughts.

Warez is thefth anyway you slice it, you can rationalize it (like I do too) but in the bottom line you are stealing.

Hacking is breaking and entering, it violates a person's/company's privacy and therefore it is not only morally wrong it is a crime too.

Cracking is fine as long as you bought the program yourself. After all many NO-CD patch authors admit that they buy their games (after all you need a copy of the game to start cracking).

Reverse engineering is actually the process of taking a finished component e.g. a sound card analyzing it and finding out the way they did it so you can copy them. In most cases that is both illegal and immoral.

I had a friend who used to do what you called reverse engineering. He had a security company and his job was to hack their systems to find the holes. His job was both moral and legal simply because the "targets" had asked him (paid him too) to do it.
 
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