War

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

John 2:15 - Bible Gateway
(many translations all basically agree)
Note this may be "a fine point" :
VOICE
Jesus fashioned a whip of cords and used it with skill driving out animals; He scattered the money and overturned the tables, emptying profiteers from the house of God.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat · Apr 14, 2017

dogs4thewin said:
No, because just because you put someone in office does not mean that you agree with his or her every decision once he or she is in.

It's possible to vote for someone who holds a stance you don't agree with, but regardless, once you vote for him you are voting for that persons stance you disagree with even if it is against what you personally believe in. It doesn't matter whether you agree with every decision he makes. He couldn't make any decision without you. So you hold the responsibility whether you like what he does or not. What I have said is irrefutable.

SeventyOne · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
You are not responsible for everything politicians do, only the stuff you support. Christians should be the ones who dont go to war. We should pray and let God fight the wars.

Not according to the other guy. Apparently, I'm responsible for everything anyone I've ever voted for has done. When you say we should pray and let God fight wars, it should be obvious by biblical history that He sends earthly armies to fight His wars.

SeventyOne · Apr 14, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
It's possible to vote for someone who holds a stance you don't agree with, but regardless, once you vote for him you are voting for that persons stance you disagree with even if it is against what you personally believe in. It doesn't matter whether you agree with every decision he makes. He couldn't make any decision without you. So you hold the responsibility whether you like what he does or not. What I have said is irrefutable.

I'm glad God won't be judging me based off of your opinion.

dogs4thewin · Apr 14, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
It's possible to vote for someone who holds a stance you don't agree with, but regardless, once you vote for him you are voting for that persons stance you disagree with even if it is against what you personally believe in. It doesn't matter whether you agree with every decision he makes. He couldn't make any decision without you. So you hold the responsibility whether you like what he does or not. What I have said is irrefutable.

Leaders cannot please everyone. By your logic I make Donald Trump get out of bed in the morning and make him sign or not sign certain bills so no.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat · Apr 14, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Apparently, I'm responsible for everything anyone I've ever voted for has done.

I will repeat this one last time. You aren't responsible for everything anyone you ever voted for has done, only the things they did because of the power you gave them through your vote.

SeventyOne · Apr 14, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
I will repeat this one last time. You aren't responsible for everything anyone you ever voted for has done, only the things they did because of the power you gave them through your vote.

Unless you are willing to give me the scriptural references that back up your claim, I'll just have to say your opinion is still absurd.

ImAllLikeOkWaitWat · Apr 14, 2017

dogs4thewin said:
Leaders cannot please everyone. By your logic I make Donald Trump get out of bed in the morning and make him sign or not sign certain bills so no.

This is a straw man. Which you and seventyone are completely guilty of here. My argument isn't you make donald trump get out of bed and do whatever, it is that the very fact that he can do what he does in regards to his presidential power given to him by you and voters like you is what makes you responsible for what he does with his presidential power. Simply because he has the power because of your vote. That makes you responsible whether you are comfortable with that or not doesn't make it untrue. This couldn't be a more clear cut case of a vote mattering more than in this past election.

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
I will repeat this one last time. You aren't responsible for everything anyone you ever voted for has done, only the things they did because of the power you gave them through your vote.

That assumes the vote made a difference.
However,
as JESUS judges the heart,
it is the heart that endorses bloodshed
without even knowing how they voted
that judges one guilty.

Voting without endorsing JESUS' WAY
likewise -
for JESUS said we can either be for GOD or against GOD, one or the other,
there's no inbetween (in JESUS' JUDGMENT).

So likewise, endorsing the world's way,
contrary to JESUS' WAY
from the heart
is opposed to JESUS (as HE always knows the heart)
and
subject to correction at least.

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

ImAllLikeOkWaitWhat said:
This couldn't be a more clear cut case of a vote mattering more than in this past election.

Again, only as the heart goes....
in the countries that practice so-called democracy,
voting hardly ever counts - the decision was made before even starting the election. (either by God, or by men).... as revealed the first six months last year, and be past elections everywhere.

W2L · Apr 14, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Not according to the other guy. Apparently, I'm responsible for everything anyone I've ever voted for has done. When you say we should pray and let God fight wars, it should be obvious by biblical history that He sends earthly armies to fight His wars.

Yes earthly armies, not Christians. There are earthly armies, and the army of God.

W2L · Apr 14, 2017

Well folks. Im done with this discussion. Everything has been said multiple times already. Thank you for participating. God bless.

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
Yes earthly armies, not Christians. There are earthly armies, and the army of God.

biblehub.com/2_kings/6-17.htm - Cached - Similar
Then Elisha prayed, "O LORD, open his eyes so he can see." The LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw that the hill was full of horses and chariots of fire .

Guess who wins !

SeventyOne · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
Yes earthly armies, not Christians. There are earthly armies, and the army of God.

Some Christians are in the earthly armies.

W2L · Apr 14, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Some Christians are in the earthly armies.

Yes, but their weapons are not carnal. We are going in circles with your logic.

381465 · Apr 14, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Some Christians are in the earthly armies.

But according to some here they cannot really be Christians.

W2L · Apr 14, 2017

381465 said:
But according to some here they cannot really be Christians.

I leave judgment in Gods hands. All things in Gods hands. I dont judge the military. I pray for them. If we prayed, would God hear our prayer for peace? Must we go to war? Seriously? Are our prayers not answered? My faith cannot agree. I must step out in faith and declare that war is insanity, because my heart knows it. Prayer must be the answer.

yeshuaslavejeff · Apr 14, 2017

SeventyOne said:
Some Christians are in the earthly armies.

A lot of Christians commit idolatry.
Which is worse ? Murder or idolatry?
And
who decides if one is okay or not ?

Jesus says "Go and sin no more, so things don't get worse for you",
not "Okay, go and sin a little, it's okay"....
and
HE is the JUDGE. Not men who say it is okay to sin.

devin553344 · Apr 14, 2017

W2L said:
Listen, paul said we do not war in the flesh. If anyone needed to war in the flesh it was them, but they did not. They could have, but didnt. You are playing with hypotheticals, and your conclusions are wrong. We dont war in the flesh, our weapons are not carnal. Thats sound doctrine. Takje it, or leave it. We all must make our own decisions.

My conclusions and doctrine are sound I believe. Because if we had a president, government or king with the doctrine you're describing then we might all be overran and given to killers of Christians, rapists regimes, and even enslavement, and ultimately extinguishing Christianity for everyone. Not to mention all the hardship and suffering everyone might endure with such a doctrine at a position of leadership.

Deadworm · Apr 14, 2017

Is the frequent OT divine complicity with tribal massacres compatible with NT teaching? Of course, but you need to recognize that ancient Israel was capable of decisive military action and the early church under the Roman empire was not. Towards the end of His public ministry, Jesus commands His disciples to bear arms, presumably for self-defense (Luke 22:36-38). By extension, if we are capable, we must defend the weak individuals or nations who cannot defend themselves. But what about Jesus' command to love our enemies, you ask? The issue there is the context in which such love might be displayed. Thus, Jesus commands, "If you brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him (Luke 17:3)." By implication, you must NOT forgive an unrepentant sinner. The "70 x 7" principle is governed by this principle.

It can be a sin to pray, when prayer becomes a substitute for essential bombing.
During WW2, the US knew the Nazis were rounding up Jews for extermination in death camps. Christians prayed and God allowed 6 million Jews to be murdered! The righteous course of action would have been to bomb the Nazi concentration camps and the train tracks to stop the carnage. But we stuck to prayer instead and thus were complicit in the most horrific mass murder in human history.

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