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JimfromOhio

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In our Government system regardless how we feel or think about them that we are to trust in our Sovereign God. Biblically, God never dictates governments to have citizens follow God. God dictated governments to "govern" the people and live in a civilized world. In one of my posts, I mentioned that "The Gospel is for "spiritual society" while the Governments are for "human society". Faith is something that individuals must accept or reject. People either take the leap and believe or they do not. It is not something that can be forced. When God clearly permit during the Old Testament and there are references in the New Testament, people will find "reasons" that God removed Capital punishment. There is nowhere in the Bible that God told the governments that their "authority" have been changed. People worry about how people are controlling the world when they forget that God is the one who controls. Sovereign God is the absolute, infinite, unqualified ruler in all realms in heaven, earth and sea. God governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9). This is where we are to TRUST God in our lives. I personally don't trust the government but I DO TRUST God. Whatever happens, God allows it to happen.
 
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Rick Otto

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I don't see how this would buttress your position on the earlier posts, or how it would counter any of the objections I've stated.

Maybe it wasn't meant to.:confused:

Whatever.
Here's something to think about:

"One nation, UNDER God..."
God "allows"?
You don't believe He predestines?
 
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JimfromOhio

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Rick Otto said:
I don't see how this would buttress your position on the earlier posts, or how it would counter any of the objections I've stated.

Maybe it wasn't meant to.:confused:

Whatever.
Here's something to think about:

"One nation, UNDER God..."
God "allows"?
You don't believe He predestines?

Yes I believe that He predestines which is why I was trying to make my point.

The best and safest way to deal with these issues such as this, is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience, not us. Because God is ruling all things to work together for our good and His purpose. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." Proverbs 20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps. When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. Eccl 7:14. In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,
 
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seekingpurity047

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JimfromOhio said:
Yes I believe that He predestines which is why I was trying to make my point.

The best and safest way to deal with these issues such as this, is to look to God in deepest respect say, "0 Lord, You know all." These issues belong to God's omniscience, not us. Because God is ruling all things to work together for our good and His purpose. Romans 8:28-29 "And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them." Proverbs 20:24 How can we understand the road we travel? It is the LORD who directs our steps. When times are good, be happy; but when times are bad, consider: God has made the one as well as the other. Therefore, a man cannot discover anything about his future. Eccl 7:14. In Proverbs 16:9 We can make our plans, but the LORD determines our steps.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

What about fighting for freedoms, such as freedom of religion, etc? Like, I can give you the example of Saudi Arabia, where if we send missionaries there, they will most likely get killed immediately if they are found.

What should we do then?

Well, I guess you do have a good point Jim, and it makes sense. Hmm... maybe we could just send more missionaries in Saudi Arabia, being in the 10/40 zone. Gah! Let's just send missionaries! They are God's soldiers of peace :D

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
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JimfromOhio

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seekingpurity047 said:
What about fighting for freedoms, such as freedom of religion, etc? Like, I can give you the example of Saudi Arabia, where if we send missionaries there, they will most likely get killed immediately if they are found.

What should we do then?

Well, I guess you do have a good point Jim, and it makes sense. Hmm... maybe we could just send more missionaries in Saudi Arabia, being in the 10/40 zone. Gah! Let's just send missionaries! They are God's soldiers of peace :D

To the glory of God,

Randy

I have a long list of favorites who fought for freedom. Two of them are Rosa Parks and Martin Luther King.

Others are:

1. Corrie ten Boom was born in Holland into a Christian family who loved the Word of God. This upbringing, with the focus on Jesus, meant that Corrie behaved as she did when the world, in the form of German troops, invaded Holland in 1940. The Germans despised the Jew and were persecuting them with great savageness. Their property was being possessed and Jewish families were being split up with men, women and children being shipped to work camps and concentration camps. Throughout Europe over five million Jews were murdered by the Germans, all of this within the lifetime of many people alive today!

Christians stand up to what is good and publicly decry what is evil and Corrie was no exception. She opposed this evil and joined the underground movement in an attempt to hide Jews from the Germans and to smuggle them to safety.

She and her family were eventually betrayed and imprisoned. Corrie and her sister were shipped to various concentration camps where they continued to teach fellow prisoners about Jesus Christ. Her sister died whilst they were imprisoned. Corrie was eventually released through a clerical error and during the week following her release all of the women of her age were gassed.

Following the war Corrie helped in rehabilitation camps and she travelled all over the world telling people of her experiences and of how faithful and loving God is.

Her story was written down in the best-selling book The Hiding Place and a film, based on the book, was made by the film company established by Billy Graham.

2. "Salvation is free, ... but discipleship will cost you your life." (Dietrich Bonhoeffer) German theologian and activist Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Theologian, spiritual writer, author of fiction and poetry, central figure in the Protestant church struggle against Nazism. He was hanged in the Nazi concentration camp at Flossenbürg on April 9, 1945.

Sometimes it is really hard to figure out what to do. To many people, Hitler was probably the most evil government leader this world ever had. Peter and the apostles had opportunities to say, "We ought to obey God rather than men." The only time Christians can violate God's government is when a Christian is asked to disobey God. You can read many Bible characters including Daniel disobey the Government out of principle rather than simple disobience. During the time of Hitler, Bonhoeffer was being force to sign with Hitler's view of Christian church which of course he refused which lead to Bonhoeffer's plan to disobey Hitler and eventually that disobedient got himself hanged.

Reading history of great Christians who died in the hands of the government is a good learning history. We need to discern and figure out how FAR should we obey the Government before we decide to disobey as Daniel and Bonhoeffer did.
 
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heymikey80

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Couple other things.

There are books devoted to "just war theory" in Reformed thought. They describe the proper conditions for a government to engage in war.

There is an ancient history of Christians in the military. There have often been restrictions placed on their participation in church during times when they were required to kill. As early as I could find out about these, ancient Christian piety prohibited their direct killing, but allowed for military careers in support of the defense of the nation. This was a cause of some conscientious struggles among the faithful when Christianity ascended to becoming a state religion, and these prohibitions were even further emphasized by ascetic movements within Christianity.
 
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