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seekingpurity047

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Hey guys!

Just a quick question.

On the basis of scripture, are christians permitted to join the military and be prepared to fight and kill for their country?

And...

Is it permissible for a state to go to war?

Thanks!

To the glory of God,

Randy
 

Rick Otto

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Like fer instance, is your government truly serving God in the war? Was the war declared, planned, & executed according to law? Are any of the provocateurs making money off it?

Can you seek a non-combat position?
I was a plumber for the Air Force for 4yrs.
Combat-wise, the worst they ever have to do is stand guard while outhouses are bein' dug.

I think you have to make an informed judgement call on this one. Decide which of the various issues apply & wiegh them (or kick them around a little^_^ ).
It'll help you discern your own motivations, I mean deeper, personal ones other than the obvious surface work ethic.
I had a lot of fun, but it was no place I thought I could survive for 20yrs. Too bad, I'd be retired, workin' part time at somethin' I enjoy even more, with great health benefits right now.:doh:
 
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Cajun Huguenot

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seekingpurity047 said:
Hey guys!

Just a quick question.

On the basis of scripture, are christians permitted to join the military and be prepared to fight and kill for their country?

And...

Is it permissible for a state to go to war?

Thanks!

To the glory of God,

Randy

Yes and again yes.
 
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Imblessed

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I think yes, but also that it depends on the person. I think it takes a different kind(I'm not sure what other word to use here)of christian to feel comfortable with joining the military and fighting or even killing. I feel the same way about christians in politics--it's ok, but it takes a special kind of person to feel comfortable with it.

My husband was in the military(reserves) when we were first married. He was a transporter, drove those caravans and fuel containers around.

When he was thinking of re-joining recently, he quickly realized he had come to the point in his life where he couldn't justify joining in any part of the military that helped kill other people, such as driving the convoys, or even fixing the combat helicopters(what he had originally wanted to do). He decided instead on trying to join as a chaplain's assistant or a counselor.
It was definately weird for him to come to that view, because up until recently he had never felt that way. But he was still ok with being part of the military and he isn't antiwar or anything........(btw, the military rejected him outright based on eye surgery he had last year for pre-glaucoma. His eye sight is fine, excellent even, but he's too high risk.)

Off Topic: I have to say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about our present situation though,and wonder about our current president. I was very supportive in the beginning, but now.....I just don't know. Too many things......

maybe it's just the antiwar propaganda getting to me... :)
 
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seekingpurity047

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Imblessed said:
I think yes, but also that it depends on the person. I think it takes a different kind(I'm not sure what other word to use here)of christian to feel comfortable with joining the military and fighting or even killing. I feel the same way about christians in politics--it's ok, but it takes a special kind of person to feel comfortable with it.

My husband was in the military(reserves) when we were first married. He was a transporter, drove those caravans and fuel containers around.

When he was thinking of re-joining recently, he quickly realized he had come to the point in his life where he couldn't justify joining in any part of the military that helped kill other people, such as driving the convoys, or even fixing the combat helicopters(what he had originally wanted to do). He decided instead on trying to join as a chaplain's assistant or a counselor.
It was definately weird for him to come to that view, because up until recently he had never felt that way. But he was still ok with being part of the military and he isn't antiwar or anything........(btw, the military rejected him outright based on eye surgery he had last year for pre-glaucoma. His eye sight is fine, excellent even, but he's too high risk.)

Off Topic: I have to say, though, I'm beginning to wonder about our present situation though,and wonder about our current president. I was very supportive in the beginning, but now.....I just don't know. Too many things......

maybe it's just the antiwar propaganda getting to me... :)

I see where you are coming from. I can't help but agree with you.

The way I see it is that, indeed, it does require a special sorta person to join the military, or even to serve in politics (heh... oddly, im studying it).

Concernign your off-topic notion, I used to think the same way. But, ya see, I'm in Canada, and it is a very difficult thing to support GW over here... very very very hard. We conservatives over here get utterly destroyed, especially if you are a university student as I am. People hate us, and so on and so forth.

Concerning the War, I used to be a supporter as well. Now, indeed, I'm not too sure either. But, I'm not really against it. I don't think they should just pull out and leave the country in turmoil, that would just be a terrible thing to happen. I have a feeling that this Iraq situation may become another Germany situation, only without the Cold War atmosphere.

Thanks for the reply,

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
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heymikey80

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seekingpurity047 said:
The way I see it is that, indeed, it does require a special sorta person to join the military, or even to serve in politics (heh... oddly, im studying it).
It also takes a certain kind of motivation. Most of ethics and morality involves intent, permission isn't the issue.
seekingpurity047 said:
Concerning your off-topic notion, I used to think the same way. But, ya see, I'm in Canada, and it is a very difficult thing to support GW over here... very very very hard. We conservatives over here get utterly destroyed, especially if you are a university student as I am. People hate us, and so on and so forth.
Yeah, it was no different two decades ago. Liberals vilify conservatives, constantly talking against them. Heck, Bush isn't that much of a conservative, either.
seekingpurity047 said:
Concerning the War, I used to be a supporter as well. Now, indeed, I'm not too sure either. But, I'm not really against it. I don't think they should just pull out and leave the country in turmoil, that would just be a terrible thing to happen. I have a feeling that this Iraq situation may become another Germany situation, only without the Cold War atmosphere.
No. It'll be compared to the Cold War, but it won't be anything like thirty minutes from general destruction. Not even in worst case.
 
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JimfromOhio

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The Bible did SAY that God did appointed all rulers ESPECIALLY Egypt and Rome. Even Jesus submitted to the Roman Government. This topic is NOT easy to accept.

Romans 13:1-7 (NIV)
Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. For he is God's servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God's servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God's servants, who give their full time to governing. Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

By reading that and other verses in the Bible. God is the one who began the process of government. Jesus was put to death by non-Israelites (Roman Government). Throughout the New Testament, Jesus did not once rebuked the Roman Government regarding how they run their government.

As a citizen of United States and as Christians, (in my opinion) we are to focus on the social, economic, political and military crises which confront our lives require us to reaffirm our view of God as love, and the godly life as the way of peace. To love God is to treat people lovingly. (Leviticus 19:18, I John 3). Christ taught us to love our enemies, instructing us that war, both within and without, is sin and an expression of human failure. (Matthew 5, James 4). As Christians, we can commit ourselves to work more actively for public policies that reduce militarism, war, and political and economic inequities. We must work persistently and faithfully for a more peaceful and equitable world community. This are is about getting involved in our civil responsibility simply by voting and finding ways to help our fellow citizens regardless if they are Christians or not.

God governs the world (Isa. 40:22-24), the nations (Isa. 40:15-17), and us (Proverbs 16:9).

2 Timothy 2:4
No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs—he wants to please his commanding officer.

Matthew 8:8-10 (Coversation between Jesus and Centurion) The centurion replied, "Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, 'Go,' and he goes; and that one, 'Come,' and he comes. I say to my servant, 'Do this,' and he does it."
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.

Regardless what country (USA, Canada, England) you live in, the question of whether a Christian should join the military is a controversial one in some Christian circles. Should Christians be willing to fight with deadly force to defend their nation and families in a time of war or does God require us to always "turn the other cheek" and be "conscientious objectors."? In the Old Testament of the Bible, God did approve of military system. The Old Testament heroes. It was God’s Holy Spirit that moved Jephthah to go to war (Judges 11:29), and which enabled Samson, armed only with the jawbone of an ass, to kill 1000 Philistines in mortal combat (Judges 15:14-16). Even the prophets of God recognized no divine regulation against killing the enemies of God or Israel. Samuel the prophet personally killed (and even dismembered) King Agag the Amalekite after King Saul had refused to do so (I Samuel 15). The prophet Elijah personally killed 450 prophets of Baal (I Kings 18:20-40)! The New Testament proclaims that David was "a man after God’s own heart" (Acts 13:22), and Psalm 51:11 confirms David had God’s Spirit in him, but David was also a man who killed so many men in combat that one could hardly number them!

Jesus dealt personally with a Roman centurion who had great faith (Matthew 8), and God’s Spirit drew a centurion to the Apostle Peter in Acts 10. Neither officer was told by God to "get out of the military" as a condition of serving God. These examples also show that God can and does work with people who are in the military.

God has given human governments the right to fight wars for self-protection and as a means of justice. Scripture is clear in teaching that God still ordains government as the guardian of order and justice in society. In my spiritual thoughts, God still gives government the authority to punish evildoers, even by waging war, when necessary (Romans 13:1-4). God gave this power to governments because of His mercy. Otherwise, evil people would dominate. Without governments, that allow lawless people to dominate the world in a deadly fashion. According to Romans 13, it is sometimes necessary to enter war and should be at the last resort.

As Christians, we believe in the sanctity of human life. And when we talk about war, that’s the central issue, isn’t it – concern for the loss of human life? The Bible is clear that human life is precious, because we were created in God’s image (Genesis 9:6).

Dietrich Bonhoeffer, the Lutheran theologian in Nazi Germany who was executed for opposing Hitler said 'The church knows nothing of a sacredness of war. The church that prays the "Our Father" asks God only for peace.'

James 4:1-3 speaks of the origin of war. James speaks in the context of believers and how conflicts happen within the church body, but he uses the language of warring happening between people. It speaks of how war comes from the evil nature within all humans. Everyone is one between the conscience and the flesh. God has graciously given people a conscience that tells them the difference between right and wrong (Romans 2:15).

The subject of civil government pervades both the OT and the NT. It is an aspect of God’s providence and a fact of biblical history. One basic theme of the Bible is that civil government is ordained by God. The Christian is faced with the fact that the NT is silent on the specific question, does Christian responsibility to obey the God-ordained government include taking the life of others, possibly even fellow believers, simply because those individuals are soldiers of another nation? There is no “proof text” which settles that question. There is no clear direct commandment from the bible that Christians are to avoid joining military. Christians are still bound personally by a higher priority established by a higher authority. By Grace of God has made each Christian a member of the Body of Christ. The responsibility to fellow believers is abundantly clear in the NT.

1. As a Christian, it is my responsibility to trust God. Some may feel that the noncombatant believer leaves to others the defense of the nation. While I would not deny the responsibility to participate in such defense as far as conscience allows, my views differs from fellow citizens. Christians should be as concerned to pray for the security of their nation as they are to guarantee its military defense.

2. It is my responsibility to serve my government as far as conscience and my commitment to Scripture allows. As a Christian, I am not to go out of the world (1 Cor 5:9–10) though I am “not of the world” (John 17:15–18). Rather I have been sent into the world. I will pray and search for ways to serve my country without conflicting my beliefs.

3. As a Christian, it is my responsibility to serve my fellow citizens. Serving my fellow citizens and my government may well involve going into life-threatening situations knowing that I will not be bearing arms. I do not have to use weapons but I can serve the military to help in need. My service may involve medical support, work in an office, be a mechanic, engineering or any kind of non-combat related service or at least serve as a chaplain.

There are ways you can serve your country as citizens. Many of Christians I know are in the military and serving in non-combative situations. Again, this is a spiritual issue for Christian believers. Whether we agree or not about the war or simply having a military, we should honor and respect our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving for our country. If we don't do that, we are not loving Christians.

There's probably no easy answers in this topic. :sigh:
 
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Imblessed

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There are ways you can serve your country as citizens. Many of Christians I know are in the military and serving in non-combative situations. Again, this is a spiritual issue for Christian believers. Whether we agree or not about the war or simply having a military, we should honor and respect our fellow brothers and sisters in Christ who are serving for our country. If we don't do that, we are not loving Christians.
I totally agree! (to the whole post also!)
 
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cygnusx1

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My personal opinion is no .
Christians should stay away from physical conflict for several reasons.

One good reason is it places the Christian in a compromised position .........you may be fighting in a war that is unjust.

also , we are to love our enemies and if he is hungry give him food , turn the other cheek , do not repay evil with evil , but overcome evil by good , be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind ......... etc.

always keep in mind that wars can be legitimate , but that does not mean Christians are called to take up arms , the possibility is that you actually may end up killing another Christian !

Consider Jesus who when he was struck did not send for the Army of heaven , neither did his Apostles but instead prayed for their murderers.

I know some think that you can love your enemies at the same time as shooting them , I leave that between themselves and The Lord , each man should do what he is morally persuaded to do.

If Jesus is not our example on this one , then I fail to see how He may be our example on anything.
 
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Imblessed

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cygnusx1 said:
My personal opinion is no .
Christians should stay away from physical conflict for several reasons.

One good reason is it places the Christian in a compromised position .........you may be fighting in a war that is unjust.

also , we are to love our enemies and if he is hungry give him food , turn the other cheek , do not repay evil with evil , but overcome evil by good , be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind ......... etc.

always keep in mind that wars can be legitimate , but that does not mean Christians are called to take up arms , the possibility is that you actually may end up killing another Christian !

Consider Jesus who when he was struck did not send for the Army of heaven , neither did his Apostles but instead prayed for their murderers.

I know some think that you can love your enemies at the same time as shooting them , I leave that between themselves and The Lord , each man should do what he is morally persuaded to do.

If Jesus is not our example on this one , then I fail to see how He may be our example on anything.

Cygnus,
I can't say that I disagree with anything you wrote. I personally feel the same way, but I also know there are good christians out there that are ok with being in the military as a fighter. I cannot rightly condemn them for that---even if I don't understand it at all!
 
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seekingpurity047

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cygnusx1 said:
My personal opinion is no .
Christians should stay away from physical conflict for several reasons.

One good reason is it places the Christian in a compromised position .........you may be fighting in a war that is unjust.

also , we are to love our enemies and if he is hungry give him food , turn the other cheek , do not repay evil with evil , but overcome evil by good , be not conformed to this world but be transformed by the renewing of your mind ......... etc.

always keep in mind that wars can be legitimate , but that does not mean Christians are called to take up arms , the possibility is that you actually may end up killing another Christian !

Consider Jesus who when he was struck did not send for the Army of heaven , neither did his Apostles but instead prayed for their murderers.

I know some think that you can love your enemies at the same time as shooting them , I leave that between themselves and The Lord , each man should do what he is morally persuaded to do.

If Jesus is not our example on this one , then I fail to see how He may be our example on anything.

Cygnus, I also absolutely agree with you. But, if there is an unjust war, isn't the burden of that sin put upon the government rather than the soldiers? And, what about when there is conscription? Are we to obey the government when they force conscription, or are we to disobey and perhaps go to jail for it?

I'm not challenging you, just asking.

To the glory of God,

Randy
 
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cygnusx1

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seekingpurity047 said:
Cygnus, I also absolutely agree with you. But, if there is an unjust war, isn't the burden of that sin put upon the government rather than the soldiers? And, what about when there is conscription? Are we to obey the government when they force conscription, or are we to disobey and perhaps go to jail for it?

I'm not challenging you, just asking.

To the glory of God,

Randy

just some rambling thoughts ... I am tired :)

I cannot see any of the Apostles of Christ in an earthly army , I mean it wasn't that they were too busy spreading the Gospel to work , Paul worked , I just think that given certain principles about not getting involved in the affairs of this world (I will look up the scriptures later) but instead treating this world as not our home and as transient and passing away , I would personally leave armed forces well alone , and also politics which seems to major in mammon and power .......

conscription may have social benefits for discipline and commeradship but I think the certainty of being trained to kill should be the deciding factor.


"Peter put up your sword!" said Jesus to Peter facing armed conflict with the Romans .........King David would have killed them all most probably.

It was enough for Cassius Clay (Muhammed Ali) to forgo his prize award and suffer negative reaction rather than face the probability of killing fellow blacks (even fellow Muslims in his case) that would not permit his conscience to compromise.

Personaly I think going to jail is better than going to kill "our enemies" and it should be remembered that years ago C.O. (conscienscious objectors ) were shot not jailed.
I have spoken to a number of people who were in the second world war and they became pacifists as a result of seeing the reality of war .......... the bottom line for many would be , 'how much trust can we really place in politicians who can keep men at war for years , often with seeming disregard for the sanctity of life.'
 
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JimfromOhio

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Throughout many Reformed theology books, they don't focus on feelings and "picture". In Reformed theology, we need to focus on what the Bible says rather than using our emotions on the topic.

As a Christian, I believe that my political views of all these things are to be guided by the Bible and Holy Spirit. It is very important to me that I take the bible serious and at the same time, rely on the Holy Spirit to look at the "whole picture" around me. When I voice my political views, they are MINE based on my understanding the Bible and how I view the world. The Bible has much to say about the nature of human, the world, purpose, and etc. The world who are without Christ also have their own views. More often than not, the secular world view is in conflict with the bible. To Christians, this should NOT be a surprise. To the world who are without Christ, this conflict is not a surprise either. Jesus said "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence" (John 18:36). Jesus makes it clear that there is a definite separation between His kingdom and the kingdoms of this world.
 
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Rick Otto

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Jim,
I gotta disagree with you.
Jesus did NOT submit himselves to the Roman authorities, as he pointed out to Pilate.
He was submitting Himself to God.
If He had been interested in submitting Himself to the Roman authorities, He would've submitted Himself to the Sanhedrin & pharisees as well.

We are NOT to submit ourselves to anti-christ in ANY form. Realize the narrower context Paul was addressing. He was'nt giving a blanket endorsement to any scoundrel who bribes his way into authority.

Rom13:3: For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Good & evil have traded places in popular opinion.
The more you try to do good today, the more you will pay for it. Notice the growing animosity toward Christians? He was trying to keep our focus off of struggling with the flesh instead of the spirit.

The logical extreme will be reached when you government requests you take the mark or the guillotine.
What will you do with Romans 13 then?
There are countless instances of government legaly requiring their citizens to do evil.
Your interpretation shoots itself in the foot, IMHO.

I'm not against war, defensive OR offensive. What I'm against is any evil intentions being the motivation.
Had we invaded the U.A.E. or Saudi Arabia, I would be a step closer to backing Bush. After all, that was where the 9/11 hijackers came from.
If the Saudi & U.A.E. governments had stood up railing against the actions of the hijackers, and PUBLICLY helped us discover & rout their backers, I'd be tempted to volunteer for Afghanistan, Iraq, & Iran.

Their has been too much evidence of duplicity in at least a part of our government, since way BEFORE Oswald's magic bullet, to take it for granted that Uncle Sam can do no wrong.

And to say that it is our GOv.'s responsibility to be right about it, doesn't absolve us from willingly participating in the evil they order done. That is passing the buck. WE are the government in this country. All those people who we conveniently CALL the government are actually OUR SERVANTS! We are seeing them(the tail) wag the dog(us), and it is in large part because we find it CONVENIENT to let them get away with it, if we think it doesn't "really" affect us.
 
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JimfromOhio

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Regarding about Government forcuing is to disobey God, I would do like some did in the Bible. I rather obey God than obey authorities if they force me to do what God is against.

I have some personal hall of faith believers who rebelled against the Government ONLY WHEN they HAD TO. Other than that, we obey.
 
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Rick Otto

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"When Peter cut a soldier's ear? Jesus said what: "

Let me guess 1st... "Stop! You're breaking Roman Law!"?^_^

But that certainly answers the "Should I join the military?" question, Jim... He said "...all that live by the sword die by the sword.":cool:

I think it's great when we esteem God's will over government compulsion, I just wish we would be more diligent to percieve the difference instead of waiting until it's blatantly obviousness is too inconvenient to ignore or rationalize. Especially when that rationalization is credited to scripture.:sorry:


In another book, He's reprted as saying " Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" He DIDn't say "The gov. wants me dead, therefore it must be God's will."

When Jesus spoke with the Roman government, Jesus said what: " "

On which occasion? At first, he answered him to never a word; insomuch that the governor marvelled greatly.

On another He said " My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence."

After being scourged & warned by Pilate that He could be put to death, Jesus said "Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."
Jesus told Pilate by inference, that to legaly execute Him would be a sin.

There's your strongest clue to be very discerning about doing what Big Brother tells you to or not, to do.
 
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Rick Otto

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I don't understand your question, so I'll use my blunderbuss:

inference

One entry found for inference. Main Entry: in·fer·ence
Pronunciation: 'in-f(&-)r&n(t)s, -f&rn(t)s
Function: noun
1 : the act or process of inferring : as a : the act of passing from one proposition, statement, or judgment considered as true to another whose truth is believed to follow from that of the former b : the act of passing from statistical sample data to generalizations (as of the value of population parameters) usually with calculated degrees of certainty
2 : something that is inferred; especially : a proposition arrived at by inference
3 : the premises and conclusion of a process of inferring


10: Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
11: Jesus answered, Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

I hope the inclusion of the verse 10 will allow you to see how Jesus has inferred that Pilate has sinned, Pilate's punitive actions being the implied "lesser" of sins than that of Judas' delivering Jesus into Pilate's hands.


Did that answer suffice?
 
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