War!!!!

tah · May 29, 2005

what are the 'arguments for' for taking part in war.

what are the 'arguments against' for not taking part in war.

tell me your views. thanks.

BourbonFromHeaven · May 29, 2005

WAR!

UH!

What is it good for?

Absolutetly nothin!

arunma · May 29, 2005

There aren't many Christian arguments to justify war. Saint Augustine said that Christian dominated nations should only engage in war for self-defense, or to retrieve conquered lands. And even then, he said that war is still not the ideal solution.

Bookofknowledge · May 29, 2005

arunma said:
There aren't many Christian arguments to justify war. Saint Augustine said that Christian dominated nations should only engage in war for self-defense, or to retrieve conquered lands. And even then, he said that war is still not the ideal solution.

I think I have asked you this question before but please tell me.

Are you a follower of Saint Augustine or Jesus?

WhySoSerious77 · May 29, 2005

BourbonFromHeaven said:
WAR!

UH!

What is it good for?

Absolutetly nothin!

Made me think of Jackie Chan...

WhySoSerious77 · May 29, 2005

arunma said:
There aren't many Christian arguments to justify war. Saint Augustine said that Christian dominated nations should only engage in war for self-defense, or to retrieve conquered lands. And even then, he said that war is still not the ideal solution.

So should we go retrieve conquered lands of ancient Christianity? That would be kicking a lot muslims Turks and arabs out of their houses.

Bookofknowledge said:
Are you a follower of Saint Augustine or Jesus?

Jesus never said "don't fight, don't serve your country in armed forces, don't defend yourself" When he said love your enemies, turn your cheek, he didn't impose that we be suicidal freaks that get beaten in every corner.

Question: "What does the Bible say about a Christian serving in the military?"

Answer: Believe it or not, the Bible contains a large quantity of information about serving in the military. While large portions of the military information contained in the Bible are only analogies, several verses directly relate to this question. No, the Bible does not come out and specifically state Thou shalt serve; and in contrast it also does not state Thou shalt not serve. Christians can rest assured that being a soldier is highly respected throughout the Bible and know that such service is consistent within a Biblical worldview.

The first example of military service is found in the Old Testament (Genesis 14), when Abraham's nephew Lot was kidnapped by Chedorlaomer, king of Elam, and his allies. Abraham rallied to Lot's aid by gathering 318 trained men of his household and defeating the foreign forces.

Late in its history, the nation of Israel developed a standing army. The sense that God was the Divine Warrior and would protect His people regardless of their military strength may have been a reason why Israel was slow to develop an army. The development of a regular standing army in Israel came only after a strong, centralized political system had been developed by Saul, David, and Solomon. Saul was the first to form a permanent army (1 Samuel 13:2; 24:2; 26:2). Nevertheless, the army had to be supported by food and other supplies from the homes of individual soldiers (1 Samuel 17:17-19).

What Saul began, David continued. He increased the army, brought in hired troops from other regions who were loyal to him alone (2 Samuel 15:19-22), and turned over the direct leadership of his armies to a commander in chief (Joab). Under David, Israel also became more aggressive in its offensive military policies, absorbing neighboring states like Ammon (2 Samuel 11:1; 1 Chronicles 20:1-3). David established a system of rotating troops with 12 groups of 24,000 men serving one month of the year (1 Chronicles 27). Although Solomon's reign was peaceful, he further expanded the army, adding chariots and horsemen (1 Kings 10:26). The standing army continued (though divided along with the kingdom after the death of Solomon) until 586 B.C., when Israel ceased to exist as a political entity.

Jesus marveled when a Roman Centurion (officer in charge of one hundred soldiers) approached Him. The Centurions response to Jesus indicated his clear understanding of authority, as well as his faith in Jesus (Matthew 8:5-13). Jesus did not denounce his career. I would also point out that the Centurions mentioned in the New Testament are praised as Christians, God-fearers, and men of good character (Matthew 8:5,8,13; 27:54; Mark 15:39,44-45; Luke 7:2,6; 23:47; Acts 10:1,22; 21:32; 22:25-26; 23:17,23; 24:23; 27:1,6,11,31,43; 28:16).

Historically the place and the title may have changed, but our armed forces should be still just as favorably valued as the Centurions of the Bible. Being a soldier was highly revered. For example, Paul describes Epaphroditus, a fellow Christian as a fellow soldier (Philippians 2:25). The Bible also uses military terms to describe being strong in the Lord by putting on the whole armor of God (Ephesians 6:10-20).

Yes, the Bible does address serving in the military, directly and implicitly. The Christian men and women who serve their country with character, dignity, and honor, can rest assured that the civic duty they perform is condoned and respected by our Sovereign God. Why do soldiers give up the comforts of home for a dangerous job with low pay? They do it for the same reason that a firefighter runs into a burning building instead of away from it. They do it for the same reason that a police officer runs toward the sound of gunfire. They do it for us.

arunma · May 29, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
I think I have asked you this question before but please tell me.

Are you a follower of Saint Augustine or Jesus?

I'll answer that if you first tell me one thing: are you a follower of Allah or Mohammed?

Bookofknowledge · May 29, 2005

Bushmaster said:
Jesus never said "don't fight, don't serve your country in armed forces, don't defend yourself" When he said love your enemies, turn your cheek, he didn't impose that we be suicidal freaks that get beaten in every corner.

Correct me If I am wrong since I do have little knowledge with regards to the religion you follow.

1. Jesus never said don't fight

could this mean Jesus did say fight for justice?

arunma · May 29, 2005

Bushmaster said:
So should we go retrieve conquered lands of ancient Christianity? That would be kicking a lot muslims Turks and arabs out of their houses.

I take it you disagree with my anti-war stance. You seem to have a high regard for soldiers, and I share that feeling. In fact it's precisely due to my respect for soldiers that I'm against war. I don't think soldiers should have to surrender their lives to satiate the greed of the same politicians whose own sons find clever means of avoiding military service.

Bookofknowledge · May 29, 2005

arunma said:
I'll answer that if you first tell me one thing: are you a follower of Allah or Mohammed?

I follow the commands of Allah.

Command of Allah is to obey Allah and His Rasuls.

24:51
The response of the true believers, when they are called to Allah and His Rasool that he may judge between them, is only to say: "We hear and we obey." Such are the ones who will attain felicity.

24:52
Only those who obey Allah and His Rasool, have fear of Allah and do good deeds, are the ones who will be the winners.

BourbonFromHeaven · May 29, 2005

Made me think of Jackie Chan...

Jackie Chan never said anything this cool....

Deuteronomy 32:42 - [font=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I will make Mine arrows drunk with blood, and My sword shall devour flesh; with the blood of the slain and the captives, from the long-haired heads of the enemy.'[/font]

ghazirizvi · May 29, 2005

Jackie Chan never said anything this cool....

In Rush Hour...

InnerPhyre · May 29, 2005

I'm gonna have to side with St. Polycarp over Augustine on this one. If one professes to follow the Gospel of Christ, he has no business killing another human being, even to save his own life. Jesus said that he who loses his life will gain it, but he who seeks to keep his life will lose it.

From the letter of St. Polycarp (100's AD)

"For this reason, wrap your waists," and "serve the Lord in fear" and truth, as those who have forsaken the worthless, empty talk and error of the Many, and "trusted in the one who raised up our Lord, Anointed Jesus, from the dead, and gave him glory," and a throne at his right side. To him "all things in the sky and on land" are subject. Every wind serves him. He is coming as the judge of the living and the dead. God will require his blood of those who are unpersuaded by him, but the one who raised him up from the dead will raise up us also, if we do what he wants, and walk in his precepts, and love what he loved, keeping ourselves from all wrong: greed, love of money, evil speaking, false testimony; "not rendering evil for evil, or swearing for swearing," or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in his teaching: "Do not judge, so that you will not be judged; forgive, and it will be forgiven you; be merciful, so that you may obtain mercy; with what measure you use, it shall be measured back to you;" and once more, "Blessed are the poor, and those who are persecuted for the sake of what is right, for God's kingdom belongs to them."

billwald · May 29, 2005

Depends upon what you mean by "take part in."

Conscience determines if one should kill people and break things.

Guts determines if a drafted conscious objector refuses the Medic Corps.

tocis · May 29, 2005

tah said:
tell me your views. thanks.

Do you mean generic views, or specific religious views?

As I see it, war always has to remain the last (and worst) possible option. Whatever problem occurs, as long as possible one has to try and resolve it peacefully. Only if the status quo is absolutely intolerable and peaceful means have utterly failed is war the "best" option available.

tocis · May 29, 2005

arunma said:
Saint Augustine said that Christian dominated nations should only engage in war for self-defense, or to retrieve conquered lands.

And how long ago must a conquest have taken place before you say that a war to reclaim the land is no longer okay?
To take an example from my homeland, some far-right extremists still argue for a restoration of the Großdeutsches Reich in the borders of 1937, arguing that all expansion prior to that year was legal and that hitler's aggression only became unacceptable after that date. Now if we would go ahead and really try to do that, imagine how many people we would have to force out of the lands they lived in for several decades.
Considering that Germany is a nation with a predominantly christian population, do you think that a war to reclaim the territories in modern Poland et cetera is acceptable by christianity's standards as proposed by Augustine?

arunma · May 30, 2005

Bookofknowledge said:
I follow the commands of Allah.

Command of Allah is to obey Allah and His Rasuls.

24:51
The response of the true believers, when they are called to Allah and His Rasool that he may judge between them, is only to say: "We hear and we obey." Such are the ones who will attain felicity.

24:52
Only those who obey Allah and His Rasool, have fear of Allah and do good deeds, are the ones who will be the winners.

And does following Allah require that one not follow Mohammed? The point I'm trying to get at is that Saint Augustine's writings are seen as commentary on the teachings of Jesus and the apostles. Augustine gets a few things wrong, but his writings are still useful for gaining insight into the Scriptures.

tdcharles · May 30, 2005

These are the requirements of a so-called just war.

"1. the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;

2. all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;

3. there must be serious prospects of success;

4. the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition." (CCC 2309)

Criteria number four is speculated by many as invalidating any war involving any nation that has nuclear weaponry. There are very few wars that satisfy all of those conditions, and some think that no war can satisfy all conditions.

ghazirizvi · May 30, 2005

And does following Allah require that one not follow Mohammed?

No.

arunma · May 30, 2005

Ghazirizvi, it was a rhetorical question.

War!!!!

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