War on Terror?

[Blindfaith]

I am pointing out that in order to be consistent you should not judge the terrorists unless you have experienced the things that led them to commit acts of terrorism

::jawdrop::  Where were you on 9/11?

Is the Palestinian Authority any better than Al Queda?

 

[Starscream]

Originally posted by zyzychyn
In short, the war there has NOTHING to do with America and WHY are we siding with Israel?

Because they resemble us more than the Palestinians?  Because their form of Government is a democracy?  Because of the link Isrealites and Christians have through the Bible?

I don't know ... but it does seem like there is plenty of blame to place on both sides.  I don't see how it helps us any to take sides - but it would be nice if we could have a *positive* influence on the matter.

BTW, by "positive influence" I don't mean to bomb the living snot out of someone.  I wonder why God and His children always choose to resolve their problems with death.

*sigh*

 

[Blindfaith]

I wonder why God and His children always choose to resolve their problems with death.

Now you have me curious Starscream. Like what?

If you want a discussion on this, then open a new thread?

 

[Starscream]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Now you have me curious Starscream. Like what?

If you want a discussion on this, then open a new thread?

It's just a passing comment regarding the choices that "religious" people make when resolving conflict.  Sometimes I think the world would be much better off without religion to divide us (and perhaps poorly guide us).

The majority of my post was just a response to zyzychyn.

 

[Blindfaith]

Ahhhh.....gotcha.

But of course you know, I'm going to naturally disagree about your opinion of religion though, don't you?

Religion doesn't do the dividing ~ people do.

 

[Starscream]

Originally posted by blindfaith
Ahhhh.....gotcha.

But of course you know, I'm going to naturally disagree about your opinion of religion though, don't you?

But of course!

I only think that though when I read about all the garbage going on in parts of the world - most people I know personally are religious and I can't deny that religion has had a positive impact on their lives.

Religion doesn't do the dividing ~ people do.

Yeah, I just wish religion wasn't so easily perverted.

 

[Blindfaith]

Yeah, I just wish religion wasn't so easily perverted.

I have to agree with you here, Starscream.  When God created man, what's going on right now is not what He intended.  Sin entered the world, and men sin. 

There are going to be wars, famine, destitution, homocides, illness and death until the Second Coming.  That's just the facts jack   We can pray for peace and know that God hears us.  Will it stop all of the wars?  I don't think so, but I don't presume to speak for God.

The only thing I can say about the Palestinian Authority, and my skepticism of it, is any time there's a suicide bombing, Arafat says, "I condemn the attack".

A few days later, another attack.  Another statement, "I condemn the attack"

A few days later, another attack.  Another statement, "I condemn the attack".  I could cut and paste those two sentences for the next two hours.  *ugh*  Does any of it ever stop?  No.  There's plenty of blame to go all around.

I like Wols' attitude. 

Know what?  I'm thankful that I live where I live. 

 

[laumelilu]

Israel has occupied Palestinian Territory.

The reason that America is supporting israel is because they are "god's Chosen people" written about in the OLD TEASTMENT. I believe everyone is God's Chosen people.... How can you say that Israel is superior to another country??? The God I believe in doesn't favour a race or country over another. So you are saying that becuase you are American you are not Gods chosen people????

We are all people of God. I don't think God, when he said "Chosen people of Israel" meant that litterally as in the country. The Israel back then is TOTALLY different from the Israel now.

This whole paletinian conflict has something to do with rebuilding a temple right? so Jesus can come again??

Please tell me does Jesus and God, the creators of this world need a building made of Concrete to come back? I think God is a little more powerful than that!

Also The bible states that Jesus will come like a theif in the night... so remind me again why Jesus's coming is relient on a temple spoken about in the OLD TESTEMANT???

America has supplied over 80% of Israel's weapons, and has supported them taking over Palestinian Territory. Of course it is an EXTREMELY complicated situation and yes Palestine is not perfect. But tell me how you can justify killing millions of people on BOTH sides over a building. A BUILDING PEOPLE!

If America was not supporting Israel, they would not have the arms or the power to attack palestine.. and the conflict wpould have fizzled and died a long time ago.

Palestine is an oppressed nation... and if you want my opinion... which I know you don't, from experience of other conversations on this forum...

DONT SUPPORT ISRAEL... It's not their land to take.

You are all going on Old Testement scripture.. the old law and taking it literally... the bible is full of symbolism.

Are you telling me that God favours one nation over another??? cause thats what your saying

Are you telling me that God is not powerful enough to come back to earth when he wants to, regardless of a building?

Are you telling me that because Jesus mentioned the tribes of israel as his chosen people over 2000 years (in fact a lot more than that!) In a time when we were seperated from god by sin he ment that a race of people was superior to another? That someone from America/Australi/africa was not one of God's people!??? I believe when he said Israel he meant all Christians.

If The God I serve holds a race of people over another than I will seriously have to consider my faith.

Laume

 

[Blindfaith]

 

But tell me how you can justify killing millions of people on BOTH sides

Millions of people?  Are we talking about since the beginning of time?  Or when Israel was declared its own nation?  Millions?  I don't think so.

It's not their land to take.

Oh really.  So, the covenants and the promises from God to Abraham regarding the land is null and void because it's from the Old Testament? 

Isn't the Old Testament the same book that Jesus read? 

That He recited from in the Temple?

 

Are you telling me that God is not powerful enough to come back to earth when he wants to, regardless of a building?

Who's saying He's not powerful enough?  This is a "political" thread, not a thread in General Apologetics, scrutinizing the will and power of God.  He could come back in a heartbeat if He so chooses, and all Christians know that.  He's waiting.  Why?  Because He wants to give everyone ample opportunity to turn towards Him before the end.  No one here, including the unbelievers, has said otherwise.

 

If The God I serve holds a race of people over another than I will seriously have to consider my faith.

That is incredibly sad to me, and I hope that you reconsider your statement.  If that was meant to startle the believers here, I think the One that you should be most concerned with regarding said statement, is the Father Himself.  I can't even imagine how sad that sentence would make Him.

 

[abbershay]

howdy , first of all salvation comes from the jews....... they are the ones who have givin us the word and they are the ones that Jesus chose to come to earth through..... These are some of the things that make the the chosen people...... As for what you call the palistinains there are no such group....you have been duped by the media, but for the sake of conversation i will use that term, even though they are jordanians....

You have need of study of history ... at the time of the un mandate granting Israel as a nation the palistinaians could have had there own country they chose not too. Rather the arabs decided that they would rather drive Israel into the sea.. guess what they couldnt .... outnumber by the enemey Israel kicked but. Israel took land all the from 17 miles to damaasscuss all the way to 17 miles to egypt, did you know they gave most of that land back to the evil envading countries....... They just want peace and the world just wants a piece of them till there is none left.

the palistinian people right now are in bondage to a devilish religion islam which demands the killing of all people of the book meaning all jews and christians..... they are also in bondage to a dictator named arafat and his hench men,,, Anyone who comes against them and their coruption is killed and and left out for all to see....

God said he would bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse them...... if i am not mistaken it was an unconditional p[romise , fact is that the jews have been blind for over 2000 years and now it is time for them to call on Jesus , during this tribulation war which is about to start many in Israel will die but many will be saved also .... However with the time that is left ask Jesus to be the Lord of your life ... and dont think for a minute that you can judge God,,,, humbly ask him to forgive you and open your eyes to his plan.... and pray that you are found worthy to escape the things that are going to come upon the earth....... maranatha....... If you want good site to learn the root of it pm me.

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by datan
Who started the current intifada? And for the sake of argument--why do you disagree? 

Questions about who started what are pointless. Think of it this way - imagine that the Palestinian leadership and their supporters, which include a cross section of terrorists and others, start killing Israelis, and imagine that it is for no reason other than a wish to go back to war.

When Israel retaliates and kills some civilians (accidentally, for argument's sake) your argument about watching your family get blown apart when you have done nothing wrong at all holds. You might very well feel angry enough to go and kill some Israelis, mightn't you? Thus, your argument cuts both ways and it is irrelevant as to who starts what because not all Palestinians started anything - each individual is different.

I disagree with your position (that you can't judge people unless you have gone through what they have gone through) because it means that no action can ever be judged evil because no-one has had identical experiences.

Think about someone who has been molested as a child. They go out and molest someone. According to you, they can't be judged for that except by people who themselves have been molested.

My position is that we know that some people who have had their family killed for no reason have not chosen the path of hate and vengeance. This is enough evidence for me to suggest that embarking on such a path is a choice that people do not have to make.

 


Look--all I'm saying is that its all very nice to have conventions and treaties and protocols, but in any war, when you're under fire, and you see your buddies get blown up around you, somehow the last thing on your mind are those conventions. All you care about is your own personal survival.

 

Yes, all you care about is your personal survival. I am talking about what we should care about, not what people do care about. There have been people who have risen above such things. How about we try (we may fail, but not all the time, and we will certainly fail if we do not try) to emulate those people?

alright for the sake of argument, let's just assume the ticking bomb example: when the information that can be gained by the interrogation can be used to save lives. IF I knew that a terrorist had planted a bomb somewhere, and would kill hundreds if not thousands, then I'd say: do whatever you need to save those lives. Or a really extreme example: some terrorist brings in a nuke which is about to go off in say 24 hours. You have caught the bad guy you just don't know where the nuke is. Since you started being personal, why not have the nuke in your home city too? Alright what do you do? Personally, I'd just say: do whatever you need to do.
 

Okay - this is actually not too far from my position.

sleep deprivation, blindfold treatment, slaps. I would tend to draw the line at something that would do permanent damage. Certainty: how about plans in the person's house? Or a tapped phone call? Or surveillance. Authority? I believe the internal security services should take care of that. But I re-iterate that I don't know what it is like to survice a terrorist attack, so I cannot condemn the methods taken to try to stop the next one (although I would draw the line at arbitrary executions, decimation, etc.)

It is bizarre to me that you say you cannot condemn the methods taken, but then go on to say that there are some methods that you would condemn. That confuses me. By what right do you condemn these methods?

 

[laumelilu]

Blind Faith....

I will not turn away from the God I believe in.. because I will never believe that he is favouring one race over another. As much as you discuss this, even if a theologen came to me and told me God holds Israelites over another race I would not believe him. I don't consider myself and arrogant person. But in this case I am... Argue it all you like. Israel is no more important than any other race or nation. i will just not be associating myself with "Christians - the institution" as this would be implying that I am supporting the deaths of thousans of people.

As to millions/thousands argument.... does it really matter??? People are people... does the tragic death of lives depend on how many were involved??? And if we want to count up the lives of people killed due to American support...the same kind of support that we are seeing in Israel than yes it would definatley be in the MILLIONS.

As for the argument over land.... you obviously didnt read the my message... again... I dont believe that God meant "Israel" as a race/nation.. he meant it as GODS PEOPLE... In my opinion... Before you carry on about me "changing the bible" or whatever i can see coming my way... again I say to you.. i don't believe that my/our god is a racist God... I believe that God's land is the land he provided for us... It is only a result of sin that we have all gotten greedy and staked land for our own use.
You can not deny that Israael in it's present day form has taken over Palestinion territory.

{{{Who's saying He's not powerful enough? This is a "political" thread, not a thread in General Apologetics, scrutinizing the will and power of God. He could come back in a heartbeat if He so chooses, and all Christians know that. He's waiting. Why? Because He wants to give everyone ample opportunity to turn towards Him before the end. No one here, including the unbelievers, has said otherwise.}}}

I'm not putting a time limit on it is Jesus's coming this temple that is... Do you really think that building a temple made of concrete is going to make any difference to Jesus' return or not??

I have done much thinking reading and praying over this subject and I know in my heart and I believe that God has told me that there is no superior race. God made all man equal... no person is more important than any other. I also believe that God doies not support any War. Any loss of life due to a needless conflict. And it is revolting and DISGUSTING in my opinion that people are trying to justify killing thousands of people, people with families, lives, children, love for the sake of "Chosen people of Israel" that has been turned into a racist comment for the glory of the American and Israeli Governments and their quest for world domination and power.



Laume

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by blindfaith
::jawdrop::  Where were you on 9/11?

Is the Palestinian Authority any better than Al Queda?

If you noticed, I disagree with the concept.

I think that is a difficult question to answer. Unfortunately, despite being of Jewish descent (my grandfather changed his name to Gould from Goldstein) I am not a supporter of current Israeli policy. But neither do I support suicide bombers.

I also try to be careful to distinguish the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority from Israeli and Palestinian citizens. 

 

[Lacmeh]

Did anyone bother to follow the links I provided?
A nation, that punishes murder of a child with 6 months community service has lost any chance of sympathy, even if may they be the ultimate holy people declared by the bible.
You all seem to forget, that in this region three religions have their holy places. Each one with the claim to be the only true one. One has not to be a genius to foresee conflict.

 

[datan]

Originally posted by David Gould
Questions about who started what are pointless. Think of it this way - imagine that the Palestinian leadership and their supporters, which include a cross section of terrorists and others, start killing Israelis, and imagine that it is for no reason other than a wish to go back to war.

When Israel retaliates and kills some civilians (accidentally, for argument's sake) your argument about watching your family get blown apart when you have done nothing wrong at all holds. You might very well feel angry enough to go and kill some Israelis, mightn't you? Thus, your argument cuts both ways and it is irrelevant as to who starts what because not all Palestinians started anything - each individual is different.

OK. The way I see it, most of the time, Israel is retaliating for stuff that the palestinians do. Things like blowing up terrorists in the middle of the street - thats to stop them from killing more of their own citizens. Look at the military incursions into Jenin, Bethlehem, etc. They came about only after series of very deadly bombings. As such, I believe that while there is a cycle of violence and revenge, the Palestinians have more responsibility of perpetrating the violence. Correct me if I'm wrong. A very naive analogy would be you hitting a man for no reason, and that man hits back at you in self-defense. Who do the police charge for assault, and why? Also, what can the Israelis do that they haven't already done to try to stop the terrorist bombings using peaceful means (this is a serious question).

I disagree with your position (that you can't judge people unless you have gone through what they have gone through) because it means that no action can ever be judged evil because no-one has had identical experiences. Think about someone who has been molested as a child. They go out and molest someone. According to you, they can't be judged for that except by people who themselves have been molested.

This is a very interesting topic. CS Lewis argues this point well in his book Mere Christianity. Basically, the crux of his argument is (correct me if I'm wrong--haven't read it in ages) that only God can judge sin because only God has perfect knowledge of a person. No one has the right simply because no one has gone through what the person has gone through. (I'm not talking about judging guilt--but judging moral superiority: I'm a better person than you because I would never do such a thing.) I'm not sure if you're familiar with the Bible, but since this is a Christian forum, I'll quote it anyway. Jesus said: Let he who has no sin cast the first stone, and Judge not, that you be not judged. For by whatever measure you judge, so shall you be judged (forgive me if I'm paraphrasing it).

My position is that we know that some people who have had their family killed for no reason have not chosen the path of hate and vengeance. This is enough evidence for me to suggest that embarking on such a path is a choice that people do not have to make.

Yes, I respect your position. But what would you do in such a hypothetical scenario?  

Yes, all you care about is your personal survival. I am talking about what we should care about, not what people do care about. There have been people who have risen above such things. How about we try (we may fail, but not all the time, and we will certainly fail if we do not try) to emulate those people?

Again, please don't have personal attacks. This is not what discussions are for. I agree that war brings out the absolute best--as well as the absolute worst--in humanity. All I'm saying is that until and unless I have faced the same choices and the same circumstances, I do not have the moral authority to condemn them: what if hypothetically speaking one day I am transported into their world, and I make the same choices they make: that would make me a hypocrite.

It is bizarre to me that you say you cannot condemn the methods taken, but then go on to say that there are some methods that you would condemn. That confuses me. By what right do you condemn these methods?

No--I'm saying that personally, I would draw the line at certain things, but that's me personally. However, I cannot condemn someone else who draws the line differently, simply because I'm not that person.

Another analogy would be say stealing. Lets assume that never in your life would you steal something. Lets give an extreme example--of say a place where there's been a famine, and a mother is watching her childrens literally starving to death (the engorged belly, bones sticking out under skin), and she knows that the only way to save them is to steal some food from oh say the local warlord who has a monopoly on the food distribution. I'm saying is that until and unless I have been confronted with the same choices as that woman, and I have rejected stealing as a means of keeping my children alive, I cannot condemn that person as being a worse person than I am.

There is a difference between saying "that is evil" and saying "You're so evil--I condemn you".

Most of the time, it seems to be, that Isreal is reacting to what the Palestinians do. Please correct me if I'm wrong: I mean most of the time, not ALL of the time (we have preemptive strikes etc.)

 

[laumelilu]

Some one please tell me how to do those "quotey things!"

Its driving me crazy!

Laume

 

[David Gould]

The thing is, it is not Israel versus the Palestinians. It is individuals.

You cannot say that an innocent Palestinian whose family get killed (accidentally) in an Israeli retalitory attack bears any responsibility at all for the violence. This is the point that I am making - many of the Palestinians who take up arms may do so for the exact same reasons that the Israelis do: ie, they saw their family killed by the other side.

 

As to how I would act, I would hope that I would stick to my principles. I may fail, yes. But that does not make me a hypocrite; that makes me human.

(by the way, that was not a personal attack - it was meant to be 'you' as in the eneral everybody. Perhaps I could have worded it better).

 

As to which side is more to blame, again that is irrelevant. Individuals either struck first or struck second. You cannot say "The Palestinians did this" unless you specify exactly who you mean by "the palestinians".

That is why I try to look at the Palestinian Authority and the Israeli government as not being the same as the Israeli people and the Palestinian people. Generalisations rarely help matters.

 

I am not a Christian so the only people who I believe can judge actions are us. Even when I was a Christian, I did not believe this as the Bible calls people to condemn and oppose evil. To do that, you must be able to at least attempt to judge what is evil and what is not.

 

[datan]

Originally posted by laumelilu
Some one please tell me how to do those "quotey things!"

Its driving me crazy!

Laume

just click 'quote'

 

 

[David Gould]

Originally posted by laumelilu
Some one please tell me how to do those "quotey things!"

Its driving me crazy!

Laume

When you press the 'quote' button at the bottom right of someone's post, you will see the word 'quote' in square brackets at the start of what the other person said and the word '/quote' in square brackets at the end.

If you want to break a person's post up into pieces and respond to each bit separately, you need to surround their chunks of text with 'quote' in square brackets and '/quote' in square brackets.

Somebody else can probably explain it better.

 

[datan]

I am not a Christian so the only people who I believe can judge actions are us. Even when I was a Christian, I did not believe this as the Bible calls people to condemn and oppose evil. To do that, you must be able to at least attempt to judge what is evil and what is not. [/B]

Recognising evil--yes. But thinking that you are a better person--no. Its getting late, am I'm not sure I know how the discussion got to where it did, so I'll just pass for the moment.