Wanted: Scriptures for Discusssion

[Jvn]

Does anyone know of any specific Bible verses pertaining to the following:

1. God pointing to children or a child as the priority in a situation
2. God allowing sin, so that a greater good could come of it
3. Having children out of wedlock
4. The definition of an "illegitimate" child
5. God pointing to love or loving someone as a valid reason to act

I apologize if these are general and if there are many in a few cases, then one or two verses would be great. Thanks a lot!!

 

[Dad Ernie]

Does anyone know of any specific Bible verses pertaining to the following:

1. God pointing to children or a child as the priority in a situation

I don't know what you want with this one, but consider:

Matthew 18:3-5 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Matthew 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

2. God allowing sin, so that a greater good could come of it

Romans 6:1-2 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

3. Having children out of wedlock

I know of nothing in the NT which speaks ill of the child born out of wedlock, but there are plenty of verses referring to those who bear such children, such as:

1 Corinthians 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

4. The definition of an "illegitimate" child

Hebrews 12:7-8 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye *******s, and not sons.

3541 nothos {noth'-os}
of uncertain affinity;; adj
AV - ******* 1; 1
1) illegitimate, *******
2) one born, not in lawful wedlock, but of a concubine or female slave

But this is speaking "spiritually", even though we can see it invokes thoughts of an illegitimate child in the physical.

5. God pointing to love or loving someone as a valid reason to act

Deuteronomy 23:5 Nevertheless the LORD thy God would not hearken unto Balaam; but the LORD thy God turned the curse into a blessing unto thee, because the LORD thy God loved thee.

Isaiah 43:3-4 For I am the LORD thy God, the Holy One of Israel, thy Saviour: I gave Egypt for thy ransom, Ethiopia and Seba for thee. 4 Since thou wast precious in my sight, thou hast been honourable, and I have loved thee: therefore will I give men for thee, and people for thy life.

Jeremiah 31:3 The LORD hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindness have I drawn thee.

Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

John 13:1 Now before the feast of the passover, when Jesus knew that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved his own which were in the world, he loved them unto the end.

John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

John 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.

John 16:27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

2 Thess 2:16-17 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, 17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Hope that helps you for whatever you are doing/asking.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[StAnselm]

(2) and (3) are in the story of David and Bathsheba in 2 Samuel 11. Though we only see the good coming out of that situation in 2 Samuel 12:24. And Matthew 1.

 

[Knowledge3]

Does anyone know of any specific Bible verses pertaining to the following:

1. God pointing to children or a child as the priority in a situation
2. God allowing sin, so that a greater good could come of it
3. Having children out of wedlock
4. The definition of an "illegitimate" child
5. God pointing to love or loving someone as a valid reason to act

Hello. This is a customized Bible study for your particular request. If you are going to use this to help families and people who need guidance, then I am glad to help out.

You're going to want to focus on the later chapters of Luke and most of Matthew to cover most of the points you are looking for regarding practice and law. Your post seems to be wanting to take scripture and fit them in with some specific purpose, but I would use the teachings as a starting point first.


5< is selected by me in the NIV of Luke 26.2, and Luke 9.48.

1< is addressed in Luke 18.16

2 < Jesus usually taugh about sin in large quotes, He came to take away our sins. see John 3.16,17, and 18.

You can review those in the section of Luke 16.10-14, I would use this to deal with the problem of stealing, since it is adressed directly. The problem with discipline is addressed in Luke 22.27 as well; -To serve as an example.-

3 < Marriage and the idea of adultery is taught in Luke 16.18, and Luke 34.20,

4 < John 1.13-18 mentions a particular situation about birth and family relations. It may not addressed the issue of being born out wedlock, but I think it could apply as a starting point. The dictionary provides a standard defintion of illegitimitate. It is also described at John 3.5

The word illegitimate comes up; see John 8.40.


5. John 3.16,18,19.John 8.12,John 15.12,John 2.30

For counseling and faith, I would use John 14.25,27.

And John 16.26

 

[Knowledge3]

If that looks hard to read or understand, I can fix it.

Those 5 format questions were a challenge.

 

[Jvn]

The format was fine, thank you.

Thanks to all of the work all of you did. It has been helpful.

More specifically, what scriptures can we suggest to help counsel a couple who have had a child out of wedlock and wonder whether God would want them as first choice to care for the child vs. both of them seeking other partners or even adoption? What do we consider "right" in this type of situation?

 

[Dad Ernie]

The format was fine, thank you.

Thanks to all of the work all of you did. It has been helpful.

More specifically, what scriptures can we suggest to help counsel a couple who have had a child out of wedlock and wonder whether God would want them as first choice to care for the child vs. both of them seeking other partners or even adoption? What do we consider "right" in this type of situation?

Greetings Jvn,

I was listening to a sermon on the radio a couple days ago, and it reiterated my own beliefs on the subject. In ancient Bible days, a marriage was "consumated" the day the groom "went in to his new wife". Then we find that "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder. This should tell us that in God's sight this couple IS married, WAS married, the moment they decided to be intimate. They shall always be married in God's sight, only they should legitimize their marriage so that the child is legally an heir.

If they are wanting out of the relationship, they should know that God hates that (He hates divorce), and departure from one another, in God's sight, is considered anathema. They both must remain single the rest of their lives, or find reconciliation with each other. The scriptures reveal that there are only two conditions for breaking up a "union" - adultery or if one is a believer and the other a non-believer and the non-believer wants out. But if the non-believer wants the "union" to remain, the believer should remain in the marriage.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[StAnselm]

In ancient Bible days, a marriage was "consumated" the day the groom "went in to his new wife". Then we find that "What God has joined together, let no man put asunder. This should tell us that in God's sight this couple IS married, WAS married, the moment they decided to be intimate. They shall always be married in God's sight, only they should legitimize their marriage so that the child is legally an heir.

NO! This is a very dangerous and totally unbiblical view. Sexual intercourse does consummate a marriage, but Malachi 2:14 says that marriage is a covenant. That means that certain vows have to be made for it to take place.

They're not married in God's sight. That's what made it sin. The the right thing to do would be to get married.

Is that a possibility for them Jvn?

 

[silentpoet]

Does anyone know of any specific Bible verses pertaining to the following:

1. God pointing to children or a child as the priority in a situation
2. God allowing sin, so that a greater good could come of it

1 has been answered. 2 has a pretty decent one also, but I would like to expand in a different direction. Look at Job, the Devil was allowed almost totally free reign over Job except that he could not kill him. So from that I understand that God does allow us to be tried and tested. And from this suffering of Job, countless people over the years have been blessed. I don't think that directly answers your question, but I do think it gives a little background.

5. God pointing to love or loving someone as a valid reason to act

For God so Loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son... Also we are told to love our neighbor as ourself. If you mean love as in eros, I do not know of references. But agape love, surely that is why Christ came to us. You might also search proverbs on this one.

 

[Dad Ernie]

NO! This is a very dangerous and totally unbiblical view. Sexual intercourse does consummate a marriage, but Malachi 2:14 says that marriage is a covenant. That means that certain vows have to be made for it to take place.

They're not married in God's sight. That's what made it sin. The the right thing to do would be to get married.

Greetings St. Anselm,

You will notice the "couple" has come for advice which means, if this disclosure was worded properly, that the couple had already made a commitment to each other, VOWS, if you will, and they consumated it and produced a child. They both went into the relationship knowing full well of the possibility. You are correct in that they SHOULD get married to legitimize their relationship before man. Otherwise they ARE married in God's sight. By the way, what VOWS (covenant) do you think the Bible tells of?

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[StAnselm]

Well, it doesn't appear that they have made any vows. A commitment is not the same as a covenant.

I don't think Scripture gives us explicit content for marriage vows - hence Christians have written their own. But presumably they would have to include a promise to be faithful, to fullfil one's obligations in marriage, etc.

I don't see how they could possibly be married in God's sight, according to the biblical definition of marriage.

And I think you would find it very difficult to explain Exodus 22:16-17. In the situation mentioned there, a couple have sex, but are demonstrably not married - the father of the girl may, in fact, refuse to give her to him in marriage.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings St. Anselm,

Well, it doesn't appear that they have made any vows. A commitment is not the same as a covenant.

I don't think Scripture gives us explicit content for marriage vows - hence Christians have written their own. But presumably they would have to include a promise to be faithful, to fullfil one's obligations in marriage, etc.

I sort of figured you "read into" the scriptures something not particularly outlined.

I don't see how they could possibly be married in God's sight, according to the biblical definition of marriage.

And I think you would find it very difficult to explain Exodus 22:16-17. In the situation mentioned there, a couple have sex, but are demonstrably not married - the father of the girl may, in fact, refuse to give her to him in marriage.

Exodus 22:16 And if a man entice a maid that is not betrothed, and lie with her, he shall surely endow her to be his wife.
Exodus 22:17 If her father utterly refuse to give her unto him, he shall pay money according to the dowry of virgins.

So does vs. 17 apply here? I think not, not from what we are given. The legal act of marriage is only a reflection of what is already done in heaven. Or haven't you learned that yet?

You may also want to read the story of Judah and Tamar and then I ask you, who is the father of Pharez and Zarah? That most certainly confirms that Judah was responsible as a "husband" toward Tamar.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[StAnselm]

No, I don't think you understand - in Exodus 22:17, the father has an opportunity to refuse to let he daughter marry the guy. They have sex, but are not married.

Where do you get the idea of a marriage performed in heaven???

 

[greeker57married]

Dad Ernie

You will notice the "couple" has come for advice which means, if this disclosure was worded properly, that the couple had already made a commitment to each other, VOWS, if you will, and they consumated it and produced a child. They both went into the relationship knowing full well of the possibility. You are correct in that they SHOULD get married to legitimize their relationship before man. Otherwise they ARE married in God's sight. By the way, what VOWS (covenant) do you think the Bible tells of?

I get the impression that you are saying that if a man and a woman love each other and agree to live together and have sex then they are okay and married in the eyes of God. Isn't this what our society says today. This is not biblical when studied in the context of Scripture. We have enough couples just living together in immorality.
1Co 7:1 Now concerning the things you wrote about: It's good for a man not to touch a woman.

1Co 7:2 But because sexual immorality is so rampant, every man should have his own wife, and every woman should have her own husband.

1Co 7:3 A husband should fulfill his obligation to his wife, and a wife should do the same for her husband.

1Co 7:4 A wife does not have authority over her own body, but her husband does. In the same way, a husband doesn't have authority over his own body, but his wife does.

1Co 7:5 Do not withhold yourselves from each other unless you agree to do so for a set time in order to devote yourselves to prayer. Then you should come together again so that Satan does not tempt you through your lack of self-control.

1Co 7:6 But I say this as a concession, not as a command.

1Co 7:7 I would like everyone to be like me. However, each person has a special gift from God, one this and another that.

1Co 7:8 I say to those who are unmarried, especially to widows: It is good for them to remain like me.

1Co 7:9 However, if they cannot control themselves, they should get married, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.


Mat 19:3 And there came unto him Pharisees, trying him, and saying, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?

Mat 19:4 And he answered and said, Have ye not read, that he who made them from the beginning made them male and female,

Mat 19:5 and said, For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife; and the two shall become one flesh?

Mat 19:6 So that they are no more two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Mat 19:7 They say unto him, Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorcement, and to put her away?

Mat 19:8 He saith unto them, Moses for your hardness of heart suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it hath not been so.

Clearly from these verses marriage involves a ceremony commiting their marriage to God. There had to be a legal document to divorce one.


The Bible does not teach common law marriage and neither did Jesus.

God Bless
Greeker