Want advice on whether I should consider these thoughts related to mark of the beast valid

[mikeforjesus]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

 

[BobRyan]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

You are confusing the Rev 13 teaching on the mark of the beast - with "enforcement methods".

The problem is not "how it is enforced" the problem is the law itself.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks for your input but I don’t see why you say that. I was not arguing about how it will be enforced but I believe it will be a mark as it says on the right hand or forehead. But I was supposing it could be the law itself so that if they say the law is unless you have vaccine you cant buy and sell then it is wrong and I thought getting vaccine can then be it

 

[d taylor]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

-
​

The mark of the beast is not a chip, it is a mark on the hand or forehead and this is not the tribulation.

 

[BobRyan]

Thanks for your input but I don’t see why you say that. I was not arguing about how it will be enforced but I believe it will be a mark as it says on the right hand or forehead.

No doubt it will have to be manifest in such a way that when you go to the grocery store they will know that you are not allowed to "buy" as Rev 13 says. And when you try to sell you home they will know you are not allowed "to sell" as Rev 13 says.

But what makes it a sin? We already have laws that will freeze the assets of drug cartels, criminal groups etc. The existence of such controls does not constitute the "mark of the beast" according to Rev 13. Rather it is the Law that says you must commit a certain sin -- regarding worship as Rev 13 says -- or else your assets are frozen.

That is what the text actually says. The focus is not on "how" they manage to freeze your assets and stop you from buying or selling - but rather WHY they do it. And what sin you have to agree to - in order not to have them freeze your assets.

But I was supposing it could be the law itself so that if they say the law is unless you have vaccine you cant buy and sell then it is wrong and I thought getting vaccine can then be it

Indeed we have many examples already in place where for certain reasons - they can freeze assets of an individual. But we don't have any that say as Rev 13 says - that you have to agree to commit a certain sin regarding worship -- in order that you not have your assets frozen

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

If you are in Christ, you do not have to worry about the mark, it's nor for you.

 

[BobRyan]

If you are in Christ, you do not have to worry about the mark, it's nor for you.

Ignoring God's Word - in general - is a problem

This is true of all Bible warnings from Gen 2 onward. As long as you obey God and follow His word you don't have to worry about the consequence of ignoring God's warnings given in His Word, because your practice is already NOT to do those things God warns against..

This was true in Eden
It was true at the flood
It was true at the time of John the baptizer
It was true during the Protestant reformation - where many were turning to the Word of God and away from certain traditions of men.

==========

If on the other hand
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Noah -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Lot to is family in Sodom -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Jonah to Nineveh -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via John the baptizer to Israel regarding the Messiah -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's message to the world sent via the Christian Church regarding the Gospel -- that would be "a problem"

Ignoring God's Word - in general - is a problem

And His warning about the mark of the beast is sent to all the world -- every kindred , tribe and nation

Rev 14:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

This is true of all Bible warnings from Gen 2 onward. As long as you obey God and follow His word you don't have to worry about the consequence of ignoring God's warnings given in His Word.

This was true in Eden
It was true at the flood
It was true at the time of John the baptizer
It was true during the Protestant reformation - where many were turning to the Word of God and away from certain traditions of men.

==========

If on the other hand
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Noah -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Lot to is family in Sodom -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via Jonah to Nineveh -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's Warning sent via John the baptizer to Israel regarding the Messiah -- that would have been "a problem"
-- one chose to ignore God's message to the world sent via the Christian Church regarding the Gospel -- that would be "a problem"

Ignoring God's Word - in general - is a problem

And His warning about the mark of the beast is sent to all the world -- every kindred , tribe and nation

Rev 14:
6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”

8 And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

First of all, the Church of Christ won't be here on Earth anymore during the 7 year tribulation. Jesus' Bride will be with Him in Heaven when the antichrist will rule, because the Church will be raptured. Not only that, the Mark will be only during the second half of tribulation.

If you do not believe in rapture: Ephesians 1:13 '“when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.' Every born again Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit, thus it is impossible for the to receive the Mark of the Beast, because of Divine protection.

God's people cannot be deceived as we can read in Matthew 24:24 'For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.'

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup

When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath he drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ. No born again Christian will ever drank the cup of God's wrath, because Jesus took care of it.

So no, born again Christians cannot receive the mark, as they will be raptured already. And if I am wrong about the rapture and born again Christians are still here, they are sealed by the Holy Spirit and protected divinely. Born again Christians will never drink of God's cup of wrath, as Jesus done that for them.

I am not ignoring God's warnings, but I trust God's Word and His promises, so I know I do not have to worry about the Mark of the Beast.

 

[BobRyan]

First of all, the Church of Christ won't be here on Earth anymore during the 7 year tribulation.

1. no text says that.
2. Even the dispensational versions of the end - turn Jews into the Church of Christ - born again believers

Jesus' Bride will be with Him in Heaven when the antichrist will rule

No text says that -
Jesus warns the church in Matt 24, in 2 Thess 2, in Rev 13 to be prepared for what is coming.

, because the Church will be raptured.

True it will be raptured as Jesus points out in Matt 24 and 2 Thess 2.

Matt 24:29 "immediately AFTER the tribulation
Matt 24:30 signs appear - Christ's appearing
Matt 23:31 -- rapture "he will send His angels to gather the saints from one end of the sky to the other"

2 Thess 2 : 1-5
Regarding our gathering together to Him - that day will not come until the falling away , apostasy and man of sin appear.

Not only that, the Mark will be only during the second half of tribulation.

no text says that.

If you do not believe in rapture:

I do believe in it. post-trib.

Ephesians 1:13 '“when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.'

True - in every age.

Every born again Christian is sealed by the Holy Spirit, thus it is impossible for the to receive the Mark of the Beast

Those sealed will not choose to receive the mark of the beast as we see in Rev 14

God's people cannot be deceived as we can read in Matthew 24:24 'For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.'

That statement does not say "can't deceive" it says that for those who choose to ignore Christ's warning - it will deceive.

Matt 24:
15 “Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. ...

23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There!’ do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand.

He does not say "ignore all of this it does not concern you" rather He says "I have told you in advance" -- that is how we are protected.

When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath he drank it to the dregs.

And he said "if they tormented Me - they will torment you"

John 15:
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

John 16:33 “I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.”

There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus

True - God does not condemn the saints.

 

[David Lamb]

First of all, the Church of Christ won't be here on Earth anymore during the 7 year tribulation. Jesus' Bride will be with Him in Heaven when the antichrist will rule, because the Church will be raptured.

The bible doesn't teach that the church will be in heaven when the antichrist is present. For example:

“and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the [spirit] of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.” (1Jo 4:3 NKJV)

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

And he said "if they tormented Me - they will torment you"

John 15:
18 “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. 19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. 20 Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you.

Just because a person is suffering, does not mean God is pouring His wrath on that person. No living human, except for Jesus Christ, has suffered God's wrath, no one would suffer that and live.

Psalm 103:8 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 9He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. 10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
God is holding His righteous wrath today, and calls people to His Son.. It is the year of Lord's favour. The day of vengeance is yet to come.

Christians will also never suffer of God's wrath 1 Thessalonians 9 'The Lord, who is great in power and righteous in all His ways, restrains His anger to show us mercy, not destining us for wrath, but for salvation through Jesus Christ'. Not only does God restrain His wrath against sin, but the entirety of His wrath was satisfied when He poured it out on Jesus at the cross. - This is of course only the OT & NT believers, God's elect.
Why would Christians suffer God's wrath when Jesus atoned and fully paid for their sins? That does not mean we are free to sin, as sin still has horrible consequences and is deadly. God being a loving Father will discipline us, but His wrath is satisfied by Jesus on the cross.

John 16:33 “I have told you these things so that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But be of good cheer. I have overcome the world.”

Yes, but they won't be going through the 7 year tribulation.

That statement does not say "can't deceive" it says that for those who choose to ignore Christ's warning - it will deceive.

It says elect. That's every born again believer.

I do believe in it. post-trib.

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? Go up to meet the Lord just to come down?

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” We are ought to pray to escape the 7 year tribulation, so we can with Jesus.

Isaiah 26 also shows that God's people won't be here on Earth during His wrath in great tribulation. Verse 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

One of the biggest pre-trib rapture evidences can be found in Revelation 3 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

You have the rapture described in Rev 4 1 'After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Must take place after what? What did we have in chapters 2&3? The age of the Church. There is no Church between chapters 4 & 19. The book of revelation goes chronologically.

In 2 Tes 2 the Christians are worried the missed the rapture and are now going through the 7 year tribulation.

There are many primary things that you have to deal with if you're going to take a post-tribulation position. One is the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew chapter 25 .At the end of the tribulation period Matthew 25 you have a judgment occurring we know that it's at the end of the tribulation because Jesus discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. Then Mt 25 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.' That's not the Rapture is it? That's got to be the second coming to set up the kingdom when He comes in His glory to sit on His throne.
The post-tribulation position says this; that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return. You go through the tribulation then up and back. There's a big problem with that and it's this. If all the regenerate people go up and come back then how come
when Christ comes back the first thing He does, is separate the sheep from the goats. Who are the sheep? Sheep can't be Christians because there aren't any left they all got raptured, but if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven-year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the Sheep at the end of the tribulation. So if you jam it all at the end, I see that as the major problem of a post-tribulation view. Where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment? Because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back there aren't any sheep left.

God will pour His wrath on Earth during the last 3.5 years of Tribulation. Christians cannot be here as Jesus took the wrath for them.

Matthew 16:18 'And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”
Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why are all the tribes of the Earth mourning? Why is no one happy? If Christians are still here, why are they mourning and not happy to see the Lord?

I can go on and on. I didn't not intend this to be the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture debate, but Scripture clearly indicates the rapture will happen before the 7 year tribulation period, thus Christians really don't have to worry about the Mark of the Beast, they won't be here.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Just because a person is suffering, does not mean God is pouring His wrath on that person. No living human, except for Jesus Christ, has suffered God's wrath, no one would suffer that and live.

Psalm 103:8 The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger and abounding in steadfast love. 9He will not always chide, nor will he keep his anger forever. 10 He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor repay us according to our iniquities.
God is holding His righteous wrath today, and calls people to His Son.. It is the year of Lord's favour. The day of vengeance is yet to come.

Christians will also never suffer of God's wrath 1 Thessalonians 9 'The Lord, who is great in power and righteous in all His ways, restrains His anger to show us mercy, not destining us for wrath, but for salvation through Jesus Christ'. Not only does God restrain His wrath against sin, but the entirety of His wrath was satisfied when He poured it out on Jesus at the cross. - This is of course only the OT & NT believers, God's elect.
Why would Christians suffer God's wrath when Jesus atoned and fully paid for their sins? That does not mean we are free to sin, as sin still has horrible consequences and is deadly. God being a loving Father will discipline us, but His wrath is satisfied by Jesus on the cross.


Yes, but they won't be going through the 7 year tribulation.

It says elect. That's every born again believer.

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? Go up to meet the Lord just to come down?

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place, and to stand before the Son of Man.” We are ought to pray to escape the 7 year tribulation, so we can with Jesus.

Isaiah 26 also shows that God's people won't be here on Earth during His wrath in great tribulation. Verse 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

One of the biggest pre-trib rapture evidences can be found in Revelation 3 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

You have the rapture described in Rev 4 1 'After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Must take place after what? What did we have in chapters 2&3? The age of the Church. There is no Church between chapters 4 & 19. The book of revelation goes chronologically.

In 2 Tes 2 the Christians are worried the missed the rapture and are now going through the 7 year tribulation.

There are many primary things that you have to deal with if you're going to take a post-tribulation position. One is the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew chapter 25 .At the end of the tribulation period Matthew 25 you have a judgment occurring we know that it's at the end of the tribulation because Jesus discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. Then Mt 25 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.' That's not the Rapture is it? That's got to be the second coming to set up the kingdom when He comes in His glory to sit on His throne.
The post-tribulation position says this; that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return. You go through the tribulation then up and back. There's a big problem with that and it's this. If all the regenerate people go up and come back then how come
when Christ comes back the first thing He does, is separate the sheep from the goats. Who are the sheep? Sheep can't be Christians because there aren't any left they all got raptured, but if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven-year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the Sheep at the end of the tribulation. So if you jam it all at the end, I see that as the major problem of a post-tribulation view. Where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment? Because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back there aren't any sheep left.

God will pour His wrath on Earth during the last 3.5 years of Tribulation. Christians cannot be here as Jesus took the wrath for them.

Matthew 16:18 'And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”
Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why are all the tribes of the Earth mourning? Why is no one happy? If Christians are still here, why are they mourning and not happy to see the Lord?

I can go on and on. I didn't not intend this to be the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture debate, but Scripture clearly indicates the rapture will happen before the 7 year tribulation period, thus Christians really don't have to worry about the Mark of the Beast, they won't be here.

None of these scriptures say the saints will be raptured up before the tribulation.

Just like tribulation in Moses days- Jesus saved His people through tribulation , not from it.

When Jesus comes every eye will see Him. This is after the tribulation

Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Those dead in Christ and alive who are saved will be raised and will meet Him in the air

1 Thes 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

2 groups- 2 resurrections

1 group the saints..

Rev 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for [a]a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

After the 1000 years those who perished when Jesus came and those dead in Christ will meet their Judgement- the 2nd resurrection

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[b] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

​

11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before [c]God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second [d]death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Richard T]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

IF the mark of the beast were a shot there would not have been a shortage, plus there would not have been competing formulas, doses etc. This is one reason why I do not think even a global government can carry out the end times alone.
The bureaucracy will slow things down too much. The ten Kings in a truly global world I think might be large corporations that are given a kingdom, (monopoly power) in each of their respective realms. These companies have more money than most countries, more data than any government and soon they will have more power. They will be efficient and the new type of Federalism that will be required for government on such a scale. There is no way only EU nations are the Federalism that is used in the end times. The EU nations are not equal, they are far too bureaucratic, they are regionally inept to help govern over places like Africa, not too mention the resistance to anti-colonialism. Broke inept, national, governments that brought war and destruction (perhaps even nuclear) will be a small shadow of the past. Speculative yes, but not impossible within scripture I think. One alternative is if government is not truly global as suggested earlier in these threads, then of course this global system could never occur.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

None of these scriptures say the saints will be raptured up before the tribulation.

You provided 0 arguments against the verses that I posted. Those verses clearly show the pre trib rapture. Look at rev 4-19. The Church is no longer on earth, they are im heaven.

Rev 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

This verse you provided shows pre-trib rapture. Everyone is mourning, if Christians were on Earth when Christ comes, not everone would mourn.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You provided 0 arguments against the verses that I posted. Those verses clearly show the pre trib rapture. Look at rev 4-19. The Church is no longer on earth, they are im heaven.

Rev 4 for example is a vision.

The Book of Revelation is not written in chronological order- trying to follow it as such one will get very lost.

This verse you provided shows pre-trib rapture. Everyone is mourning, if Christians were on Earth when Christ comes, not everone would mourn.

When have the elect ever been saved?

Matthew 24: 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Jesus doesn't gather the lost, they are destroyed by His Glory

 

[BobRyan]

Just because a person is suffering, does not mean God is pouring His wrath on that person

Agreed. God did not pour His wrath on Israel during the 10 plagues of Egypt. But they did not need to be raptured out of Egypt for God to spare them from the 10 plagues.

Christians will also never suffer of God's wrath

this is the part where we agree.

 

[BobRyan]

And what would be the point of post-trib rapture? Go up to meet the Lord just to come down?

good point. The post trib rapture has value since it is the real rapture - saints taken to heaven -- not a "big bounce". As you point out having a big bounce at the end of the tribulation is not what the Bible teaches.

Luke 21:36 But stay awake at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that are going to take place

That text is not saying "pray that you will be snatched off the planet so you can escape tribulation".

John 17:
11 I am no longer going to be in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, so that they may be one just as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me; and I guarded them, and not one of them perished except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

13 But now I am coming to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15 I am not asking You to take them out of the world, but to keep them away from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

, and to stand before the Son of Man.” We are ought to pray to escape the 7 year tribulation, so we can with Jesus.

Isaiah 26 also shows that God's people won't be here on Earth during His wrath in great tribulation. Verse 20 Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourselves for a little while until the fury has passed by.

One of the biggest pre-trib rapture evidences can be found in Revelation 3 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

You have the rapture described in Rev 4 1 'After this I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven! And the first voice, which I had heard speaking to me like a trumpet, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after this.” Must take place after what? What did we have in chapters 2&3? The age of the Church. There is no Church between chapters 4 & 19. The book of revelation goes chronologically.

In 2 Tes 2 the Christians are worried the missed the rapture and are now going through the 7 year tribulation.

There are many primary things that you have to deal with if you're going to take a post-tribulation position. One is the sheep and goat judgment in Matthew chapter 25 .At the end of the tribulation period Matthew 25 you have a judgment occurring we know that it's at the end of the tribulation because Jesus discusses the tribulation period in chapter 24. Then Mt 25 31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.' That's not the Rapture is it? That's got to be the second coming to set up the kingdom when He comes in His glory to sit on His throne.
The post-tribulation position says this; that at the end of the seven years there is a quick rapture and a quick return. You go through the tribulation then up and back. There's a big problem with that and it's this. If all the regenerate people go up and come back then how come
when Christ comes back the first thing He does, is separate the sheep from the goats. Who are the sheep? Sheep can't be Christians because there aren't any left they all got raptured, but if you move the rapture to the beginning of the seven years, then you have a seven-year period in which people will be saved that will constitute the Sheep at the end of the tribulation. So if you jam it all at the end, I see that as the major problem of a post-tribulation view. Where do you get the sheep for the sheep and goat judgment? Because if Christ takes all of us up and comes right back there aren't any sheep left.

God will pour His wrath on Earth during the last 3.5 years of Tribulation. Christians cannot be here as Jesus took the wrath for them.

Matthew 16:18 'And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.' Revelation 13:7 “And it was given unto him to make war with the saints” – this is the beast – “and to overcome them.” Jesus said, “The gates of hell would not overcome the church.” That’s why I am convinced that this cannot be the church in view in the tribulation.

In Revelation 17, we have the false church. It’s called, “Mystery Babylon,” – in verse 5 – “the great, the mother of harlots, the prostitute.” If the true church is a bride, the false church is a prostitute. And he goes all through the description of this church, and the one that is running the church, verse 3, “carried me away in the spirit to the wilderness; and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast.”
Here is the false church under the control of the beast. Jesus said, “Not Satan, not the gates of hell would prevail against the church.” During the tribulation Satan and the beast prevail against the saints and against the false church. That’s why I believe you cannot have the true church in the tribulation, or it would be under the thumb of Satan and his ruler; because the antichrist during the tribulation will rule – how much? – the whole – what? – world. And I believe Christ would remove His church before He would make untrue His original statement that the gates of hell could not prevail against the church.

Matthew 24:30 'Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.' Why are all the tribes of the Earth mourning? Why is no one happy? If Christians are still here, why are they mourning and not happy to see the Lord?

I can go on and on. I didn't not intend this to be the pre-trib vs post-trib rapture debate, but Scripture clearly indicates the rapture will happen before the 7 year tribulation period, thus Christians really don't have to worry about the Mark of the Beast, they won't be here.

 

[Freth]

First of all, the Church of Christ won't be here on Earth anymore during the 7 year tribulation. Jesus' Bride will be with Him in Heaven when the antichrist will rule, because the Church will be raptured. Not only that, the Mark will be only during the second half of tribulation.

What did Jesus say concerning time and the great tribulation?

Matthew 24:21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.​

• There is no time period specified for the great tribulation in scripture.
• Those days shall be shortened. If the days will be shortened, there is no way to know how long the great tribulation is.
• For the elect's sake. The saints must go through the tribulation.

Conclusion: Only God knows the time of the great tribulation. The days will be shortened for the elect's sake, which shows that 1) we cannot know the length of the great tribulation, and 2) the saints (the elect) are to go through the great tribulation.

What time prophecy is the "seven years of tribulation" taken from?

Daniel 9:24-27 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.​

• The first sentence answers the question of whether any of the time of the seventy week prophecy can be applied to a time far in the future. "Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city..." The full seventy weeks, not sixty nine.
• The seventy week prophecy centers on the Israel/Jerusalem and the Messiah, not the great tribulation.
• The full seventieth week (or last 7 years) is accounted for. "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week..."
• The events during the seventieth week are described in detail and have nothing to do with the great tribulation. "...and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
• No mention of the great tribulation.

Conclusion: The last seven years of Daniel's seventy week prophecy cannot be applied to the great tribulation because they are fully accounted for to Israel/Jerusalem in the time of the Messiah.

 

[Freth]

Does anyone know if in some parts of the world such as switzerland if they have forced people to be chipped or you cant buy and sell ? Doesnt that mean if forced for them the mark of the beast already exists in some parts of the world ? and I thought the vaccine is not the mark of the beast because some still allowed to buy and sell but if they forbid in some places completely how do we know it was not the mark of the beast?

The end time issue will be one of worship.

Revelation 13:12-17 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.​

• The earth beast (the second beast of Revelation 13) causes all that dwell on the earth to worship the first beast (the sea beast; Revelation 13:1-10)
• The earth beast convinces the earth that they should make an image to the sea beast that received a deadly wound but did live.
• The image of the beast both speaks and causes as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And that no man might buy or sell save he had the mark, or the name, or the number of his name.

The image of the beast is forced worship of the beast; if you don't worship the beast you will not be able to buy or sell. There will ultimately be a death decree.

Revelation doesn't leave us hanging. It gives us clear language concerning worship.

Revelation 14:6-11 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

• True worship:
  • Worship the Creator.
    • Fear God, and give glory to Him.
• False worship:
  • Worship the beast and his image.

The very next verse defines the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.​

• The patience of the saints is the saints going through tribulation.
• They keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

The worship issue then concerns the keeping of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus. What commandments will the beast cause you to break? The commandments concerning worship.

1. Have no other gods.
   • Exodus 20:2-3 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. No graven images.
   • Exodus 20:4-6 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
3. Do not take the Lord's name in vain.
   • Exodus 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
   • Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

All of these commandments will be trampled upon with forced worship of the beast. In this we can know that technology of the day is not the mark of the beast.

 

[mikeforjesus]

Thanks for your reply but I don’t agree with you that you are looking at the letter of old law not the Spirit which the new testament makes clear not required anymore also that seeking to observe days to make requirement to ever be saved causes you to be cut off as galatians says just as says if you seek to be justified by circumcision christ will profit you nothing. For new testament is clear one person esteems one day same to not judge and also one can esteem one day more important but it is clear the meaning must mean not as a requirement to ever be saved but just for a blessing or to be saved immediately on death for galatians makes clear that such may lead to judgement if sabbath is included in those days you should not observe which i cant know but bible is clear as I made point you dont have to. But I am not going to waste my time debating for I believe is clear that you can make point and others can debate.