Vows #4

[dl_17]

I've posted a few threads about my vow issues. I'm now better at understanding the patterns that I fall into. Here's a description of it:

Obsession: I would get thoughts like "what if I vowed to do ...?", typically something quite significant, so vowing it away is quite stressful for me. Though, I don't know if I've become desensitized because I've been dealing with this for a few months already, but I'm stressing about it less, BUT the fact that I'm stressing about it less makes me feel that I'm AGREEING that I wanted to make the vow, making it binding. Ugh, even the word binding is causing a mini-anxiety in me. Anyway, if I have the chance to think rationally, I would be able to see that it's highly likely that I didn't vow it, but you know, OCD... By having that what if question constantly on my mind, I also get intrusive thoughts of vowing that exact same thing. I'm now better at identifying these as intrusive thoughts, because I've unconsciously made this internal rule of "if I didn't like it/tried to resist it, then I know it wasn't my thought".

Old compulsion: Before, I used to get pulled very easily into the ditch of "I did make that vow, I must pay it". The compulsion to relieve this is to go on a research spree, all 20 pages of google. At times, I can get some relief, but in the bigger picture, I know now that it actually raised my anxiety, because there would be more sites that emphasise on pay what you vow than forgiveness. It might be because the sites were just describing what happened in the old testament, aka the law, but I absolutely do not want to risk going on this research again and reignite my anxiety. If you look at my previous threads, you would see that I bring up Leviticus 5:4 quite a lot, because it's the only one that allows the forgiveness of ever making the vow in the first place, but commentaries on this verse is also all over the place.

When I get so sick of the research, I would naturally be pulled back to the state of uncertainty of whether or not I made the vow. So instead of obsessing over whether a vow can be annulled, I obsess over whether or not I made the vow. A small, more gentle voice in me (not literal, more like an abstract feeling) says that I didn't, but the louder, scarier voice is saying otherwise.

Another part of the old research compulsion was to ask pastors online. I've probably asked about 20 pastors, all of them say this kind of thing "It is true that you should generally keep your word, but remember that all sins can be forgiven", and some of them are able to identify the legalistic mindset I'm adopting and call it out, which is actually not shaming in any way, instead it sort of comforts me, as in "Oh, I'm living in bondage, so the normal life isn't like this, meaning I can and probably supposed to get out of this kind of life". Anyway, I feel more comfortable (the more long-term type) probably because the websites that I searched was just talking about vows in general, whereas the pastors were answering based on my super-specific question tailored to my circumstances. I try to meditate on the insights they provided me whenever I feel like I'm obsessing again.

Improvement/new problem: I've abandoned the old compulsion, which I see as a victory. The problem is, I don't know if I abandoned it for the right reasons. Like I said, I feel scared, almost traumatic to go back to that research compulsion. I'm afraid that I'm on a new avoidance compulsion, but probably not, because I'm still dealing with the thoughts anyway, so I'm not really avoiding anything. Maybe the research compulsion was toxic in the first place.

I've been watching Mark Dejesus on youtube frequently. I've been trying to take his advice of letting go of the uncertainty and "firing the interpreter of thoughts". Also, I've been trying to understand what freedom in Christ is in my context, which if you don't mind, can you provide some insights into this?

Current path: I know that God does not make us fear (He does not give the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind), nor does He want us to be double-minded. Letting go of the uncertainty is difficult, as all OCD problems are, but here's how I frame it: I live in freedom as in I never made those vows (which is more likely what happened), and if God wants to correct me, I know that He does not do it in a way that induces fear (like the loud voices in my brain). The difficulty here is "what if I'm deceived in this path?". I probably won't hear an audible voice saying exactly what I need to do, so I'm still having trouble discerning what is my own internal voice and what is actually of the Holy Spirit. "What if the Holy Spirit is telling me something, and I reject it, thinking it's my own/the enemy's voice? Then I would be willfully sinning" this kind of question starts popping up.

Thank you for reading to the end. Would you provide some feedback on my situation and my current path? Would be greatly appreciated once again.

 

[dl_17]

And one more thing, during the time when I was still on my old compulsion, I stumbled on a video of a preacher preaching about vows. I don't know if I'm the one in denial, or she was being legalistic. Anyway, she preached by shouting. It ignited my anxiety, and resonated with me until now (less concerning now), and not in a good way.

 

[Tolworth John]

Obsession: I would get thoughts like "what if I vowed to do ..

Please search on Google for:-
25 tips for successfully testing your odd. And read it and discuss it with your therapist, councelor or pastor.

The key part is the recognition that intrusive thoughts are not real and only have to be acknowledged.

As for making vows Jesus said don't. Read Matthew Ch 5 verse 34, but read it in context he is saying don't sweat by anything just say ' yes or no '.

Last point if your odd is forcing you to make vows, promises, oaths etc to do something. Remember a promise made under duress is not binding and it is not your odd or your conscience that decides whether you are a sinner but Jesus.

 

[dl_17]

Please search on Google for:-
25 tips for successfully testing your odd. And read it and discuss it with your therapist, councelor or pastor.

The key part is the recognition that intrusive thoughts are not real and only have to be acknowledged.

As for making vows Jesus said don't. Read Matthew Ch 5 verse 34, but read it in context he is saying don't sweat by anything just say ' yes or no '.

Last point if your odd is forcing you to make vows, promises, oaths etc to do something. Remember a promise made under duress is not binding and it is not your odd or your conscience that decides whether you are a sinner but Jesus.

Yeah, this solves the intrusive thoughts part, but what's the biggest problem for me is thinking if I made a vow in the past, the past as in before the times when I feel trapped under OCD. It's the uncertainty that's bothering me. It would be sad if, let's say, I trap myself my whole life under numerous rules due to "vows that I've made", when it could've been that I didn't vow those things at all.

 

[Tolworth John]

Yeah, this solves the intrusive thoughts part, but what's the biggest problem for me is thinking if I made a vow in the past, the past as in before the times when I feel trapped under OCD. It's the uncertainty that's bothering me. It would be sad if, let's say, I trap myself my whole life under numerous rules due to "vows that I've made", when it could've been that I didn't vow those things at all.

The past has been dealt with by Jesus. Your sin in listening to intrusive thoughts and making pointless vows has been forgiven.

Rather than worry about what if that vow I made causes me to sin, praise and thank God that any sin caused by making that or any other vow was forgiven by Jesus.

The devil loves to exploit tender consciences, reminding one of long forgiven sins and raising guilty feelings.
Don't fall for it, again praise and thank God that Jesus has forgiven you All your sins.

 

[Mari17]

I've posted a few threads about my vow issues. I'm now better at understanding the patterns that I fall into. Here's a description of it:

Obsession: I would get thoughts like "what if I vowed to do ...?", typically something quite significant, so vowing it away is quite stressful for me. Though, I don't know if I've become desensitized because I've been dealing with this for a few months already, but I'm stressing about it less, BUT the fact that I'm stressing about it less makes me feel that I'm AGREEING that I wanted to make the vow, making it binding. Ugh, even the word binding is causing a mini-anxiety in me. Anyway, if I have the chance to think rationally, I would be able to see that it's highly likely that I didn't vow it, but you know, OCD... By having that what if question constantly on my mind, I also get intrusive thoughts of vowing that exact same thing. I'm now better at identifying these as intrusive thoughts, because I've unconsciously made this internal rule of "if I didn't like it/tried to resist it, then I know it wasn't my thought".

Old compulsion: Before, I used to get pulled very easily into the ditch of "I did make that vow, I must pay it". The compulsion to relieve this is to go on a research spree, all 20 pages of google. At times, I can get some relief, but in the bigger picture, I know now that it actually raised my anxiety, because there would be more sites that emphasise on pay what you vow than forgiveness. It might be because the sites were just describing what happened in the old testament, aka the law, but I absolutely do not want to risk going on this research again and reignite my anxiety. If you look at my previous threads, you would see that I bring up Leviticus 5:4 quite a lot, because it's the only one that allows the forgiveness of ever making the vow in the first place, but commentaries on this verse is also all over the place.

When I get so sick of the research, I would naturally be pulled back to the state of uncertainty of whether or not I made the vow. So instead of obsessing over whether a vow can be annulled, I obsess over whether or not I made the vow. A small, more gentle voice in me (not literal, more like an abstract feeling) says that I didn't, but the louder, scarier voice is saying otherwise.

Another part of the old research compulsion was to ask pastors online. I've probably asked about 20 pastors, all of them say this kind of thing "It is true that you should generally keep your word, but remember that all sins can be forgiven", and some of them are able to identify the legalistic mindset I'm adopting and call it out, which is actually not shaming in any way, instead it sort of comforts me, as in "Oh, I'm living in bondage, so the normal life isn't like this, meaning I can and probably supposed to get out of this kind of life". Anyway, I feel more comfortable (the more long-term type) probably because the websites that I searched was just talking about vows in general, whereas the pastors were answering based on my super-specific question tailored to my circumstances. I try to meditate on the insights they provided me whenever I feel like I'm obsessing again.

Improvement/new problem: I've abandoned the old compulsion, which I see as a victory. The problem is, I don't know if I abandoned it for the right reasons. Like I said, I feel scared, almost traumatic to go back to that research compulsion. I'm afraid that I'm on a new avoidance compulsion, but probably not, because I'm still dealing with the thoughts anyway, so I'm not really avoiding anything. Maybe the research compulsion was toxic in the first place.

I've been watching Mark Dejesus on youtube frequently. I've been trying to take his advice of letting go of the uncertainty and "firing the interpreter of thoughts". Also, I've been trying to understand what freedom in Christ is in my context, which if you don't mind, can you provide some insights into this?

Current path: I know that God does not make us fear (He does not give the spirit of fear, but of power, love and a sound mind), nor does He want us to be double-minded. Letting go of the uncertainty is difficult, as all OCD problems are, but here's how I frame it: I live in freedom as in I never made those vows (which is more likely what happened), and if God wants to correct me, I know that He does not do it in a way that induces fear (like the loud voices in my brain). The difficulty here is "what if I'm deceived in this path?". I probably won't hear an audible voice saying exactly what I need to do, so I'm still having trouble discerning what is my own internal voice and what is actually of the Holy Spirit. "What if the Holy Spirit is telling me something, and I reject it, thinking it's my own/the enemy's voice? Then I would be willfully sinning" this kind of question starts popping up.

Thank you for reading to the end. Would you provide some feedback on my situation and my current path? Would be greatly appreciated once again.

As always, you outline your thinking processes very clearly. I recognize many of these thought patterns in my own life. The bottom line is that OCD loves to get us caught up in an unsolvable "what if?" instead of moving on with our lives. Usually, what we have to do is move on anyway, even if our brains are still trailing along behind in that uncomfortable uncertainty. As we keep moving forward, eventually they do catch up. LOL.

Some OCD thinking patterns I'm noticing in your response:
- "What if stressing less about this means MY OBSESSION IS ACTUALLY TRUE AFTER ALL?" (Dr. Phillipson calls this a "back-door spike," if I recollect correctly.)
- "What if I CAN'T trust God and my common sense to show me the way?" (An extremely common argument - at least for me - that OCD tries to use to suck me back into the cycle.)

Some thoughts:
- I think the "small, more gentle voice" and the "louder, scarier voice" is a good depiction of how the difference between our real conscience and our OCD 'conscience' often works.
- Avoidance is technically a compulsion, but I understand why you feel so frightened of doing research. OCD makes it into a really scary thing. I think you're on the right path. There's no point researching if you're in OCD mode, because as you have already realized, your OCD just latches onto whatever supports its arguments anyway. When the OCD dies down, you'll be able to research again without fear and anxiety - if you still even need to after all!

 

[dl_17]

As always, you outline your thinking processes very clearly. I recognize many of these thought patterns in my own life. The bottom line is that OCD loves to get us caught up in an unsolvable "what if?" instead of moving on with our lives. Usually, what we have to do is move on anyway, even if our brains are still trailing along behind in that uncomfortable uncertainty. As we keep moving forward, eventually they do catch up. LOL.

Some OCD thinking patterns I'm noticing in your response:
- "What if stressing less about this means MY OBSESSION IS ACTUALLY TRUE AFTER ALL?" (Dr. Phillipson calls this a "back-door spike," if I recollect correctly.)
- "What if I CAN'T trust God and my common sense to show me the way?" (An extremely common argument - at least for me - that OCD tries to use to suck me back into the cycle.)

Some thoughts:
- I think the "small, more gentle voice" and the "louder, scarier voice" is a good depiction of how the difference between our real conscience and our OCD 'conscience' often works.
- Avoidance is technically a compulsion, but I understand why you feel so frightened of doing research. OCD makes it into a really scary thing. I think you're on the right path. There's no point researching if you're in OCD mode, because as you have already realized, your OCD just latches onto whatever supports its arguments anyway. When the OCD dies down, you'll be able to research again without fear and anxiety - if you still even need to after all!

Hi Mari, you're helpful as always.

Even though I have a greater understanding of my patterns now, it's still very difficult for me. Recently, like a few days ago, I kept getting the intrusive thoughts and I finally snapped, and I think embraced the vow to do the opposite of what the intrusive thoughts say. Note that I used the word "embraced", not actually vowed it. That's because I know that at the end of it I did try to rebuke it, but the temptation was extremely strong, extremely, I just fear that it was too late. Although these new vows are what I would call "in my favour", my struggle right now is although the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts, "What if the wordings of my internal thought of vowing those was wrong, and I vowed those intrusive thoughts instead?". Again, I will share my thought processes. "The 'what if' might be real, I should follow it". And then there's me doubting my doubts "What if this 'what if' is wrong? What if I go through with this 'what if', and I'm deceived, and I'm doing exactly the opposite of the actual vows?". There's only confusion. The only thing I'm certain of was if I did vow those things, the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts.

Unlike previous tangents, I know this is OCD, but knowing that it is, just ain't enough. I'm trying to disregard this uncertainty, but I'm quite high in anxiety right now as I write this response. I'm really afraid, but I know I should ride through with this fear. I don't want to be deceived into the wrong path, but I don't want to live a miserable life either.

Another thing is, I feel like I've been on a constant extreme hypervigilance in my internal world. Ever since that terrible moment, I've been constant muttering "cannot vow" or "I don't wanna vow", almost every moment when I'm not distracted by something. It's a burden, I feel like I'm free floating these days, meaning that I can easily fall into a ditch (like I sort of just did), yet it feels like there's hope. I know I can't count on others to discern what happens in MY OWN mind, so all I can do is to ask God.

Vows aside, recently I feel like I've been directed to the "Come to me, all you who are weary" verse. Sorry, not sure where that is in the Bible, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I notice this scripture in the coaching videos I'm on, in a few of the emails from the pastors I asked, and also Instagram feed. I feel like this is a sign, but again, OCD, I'm just not sure.

 

[dl_17]

Hi Mari, you're helpful as always.

Even though I have a greater understanding of my patterns now, it's still very difficult for me. Recently, like a few days ago, I kept getting the intrusive thoughts and I finally snapped, and I think embraced the vow to do the opposite of what the intrusive thoughts say. Note that I used the word "embraced", not actually vowed it. That's because I know that at the end of it I did try to rebuke it, but the temptation was extremely strong, extremely, I just fear that it was too late. Although these new vows are what I would call "in my favour", my struggle right now is although the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts, "What if the wordings of my internal thought of vowing those was wrong, and I vowed those intrusive thoughts instead?". Again, I will share my thought processes. "The 'what if' might be real, I should follow it". And then there's me doubting my doubts "What if this 'what if' is wrong? What if I go through with this 'what if', and I'm deceived, and I'm doing exactly the opposite of the actual vows?". There's only confusion. The only thing I'm certain of was if I did vow those things, the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts.

Unlike previous tangents, I know this is OCD, but knowing that it is, just ain't enough. I'm trying to disregard this uncertainty, but I'm quite high in anxiety right now as I write this response. I'm really afraid, but I know I should ride through with this fear. I don't want to be deceived into the wrong path, but I don't want to live a miserable life either.

Another thing is, I feel like I've been on a constant extreme hypervigilance in my internal world. Ever since that terrible moment, I've been constant muttering "cannot vow" or "I don't wanna vow", almost every moment when I'm not distracted by something. It's a burden, I feel like I'm free floating these days, meaning that I can easily fall into a ditch (like I sort of just did), yet it feels like there's hope. I know I can't count on others to discern what happens in MY OWN mind, so all I can do is to ask God.

Vows aside, recently I feel like I've been directed to the "Come to me, all you who are weary" verse. Sorry, not sure where that is in the Bible, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I notice this scripture in the coaching videos I'm on, in a few of the emails from the pastors I asked, and also Instagram feed. I feel like this is a sign, but again, OCD, I'm just not sure.

For your information, I do take Jesus' teaching on not swearing an oath seriously, but I just felt compelled to snap. I felt deep regret after what happened.

 

[Mari17]

Hi Mari, you're helpful as always.

Even though I have a greater understanding of my patterns now, it's still very difficult for me. Recently, like a few days ago, I kept getting the intrusive thoughts and I finally snapped, and I think embraced the vow to do the opposite of what the intrusive thoughts say. Note that I used the word "embraced", not actually vowed it. That's because I know that at the end of it I did try to rebuke it, but the temptation was extremely strong, extremely, I just fear that it was too late. Although these new vows are what I would call "in my favour", my struggle right now is although the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts, "What if the wordings of my internal thought of vowing those was wrong, and I vowed those intrusive thoughts instead?". Again, I will share my thought processes. "The 'what if' might be real, I should follow it". And then there's me doubting my doubts "What if this 'what if' is wrong? What if I go through with this 'what if', and I'm deceived, and I'm doing exactly the opposite of the actual vows?". There's only confusion. The only thing I'm certain of was if I did vow those things, the motive was to go against the intrusive thoughts.

Unlike previous tangents, I know this is OCD, but knowing that it is, just ain't enough. I'm trying to disregard this uncertainty, but I'm quite high in anxiety right now as I write this response. I'm really afraid, but I know I should ride through with this fear. I don't want to be deceived into the wrong path, but I don't want to live a miserable life either.

Another thing is, I feel like I've been on a constant extreme hypervigilance in my internal world. Ever since that terrible moment, I've been constant muttering "cannot vow" or "I don't wanna vow", almost every moment when I'm not distracted by something. It's a burden, I feel like I'm free floating these days, meaning that I can easily fall into a ditch (like I sort of just did), yet it feels like there's hope. I know I can't count on others to discern what happens in MY OWN mind, so all I can do is to ask God.

Vows aside, recently I feel like I've been directed to the "Come to me, all you who are weary" verse. Sorry, not sure where that is in the Bible, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. I notice this scripture in the coaching videos I'm on, in a few of the emails from the pastors I asked, and also Instagram feed. I feel like this is a sign, but again, OCD, I'm just not sure.

I'm sorry for my delayed reply. Yes, OCD makes things seem very confusing, and your thought processes as well as the "counter-vowing" is all very typical. It sounds like you already know the most helpful thing to do, which is to ride out the anxiety. Also try to avoid compulsions like the muttering. Basically, do the opposite of whatever your OCD wants you to do.

Yes, there is definitely hope. As you continue to thwart the OCD in whatever ways you can - ignoring the anxious thoughts, refusing to do compulsions, delaying compulsions, etc. - your mind will gradually get stronger and start to think more clearly and logically. It feels like it won't happen, but it will. Basically, our minds get WAY too hyper-focused on our thoughts and feelings, and it requires practice to pull them out of that hyper-vigilant mode. We can't just "fall into" doing something (e.g. vowing) as easily as we think we can, despite what the OCD has us believe.

So, the key is to practice, practice, practice. Practice getting that mind filter working smoothly again, instead of getting stuck on tiny detail after tiny detail. It's hard work, but over time it does definitely yield results!