Voluntary Euthanasia

[savedbygrace05]

EirlysaI says, I reject that too.

So, you want to rewrite history!!

I'm happy to agree to disagree with you, but I'd appreciate if you could refrain from calling my beliefs - which, last time I checked, were considered "Christian" by this website in as much as Catholics are considered Christians here, nonsense. Thanks

Correction, I said unbiblical nonesense. I don't care what this, or any other website considers to be Christian, I have the Makers (God's) manual and that is good enough for me Thanks.

 

[Eirlysa]

EirlysaI says, I reject that too.

So, you want to rewrite history!!

Haha. No. I appreciate the reformation happened, but I reject the five solas amongst the other teachings that came out of it.

Correction, I said unbiblical nonesense. I don't care what this, or any other website considers to be Christian, I have the Makers (God's) manual and that is good enough for me Thanks.

You can thank the Catholic church for that.

 

[savedbygrace05]

Haha. No. I appreciate the reformation happened, but I reject the five solas amongst the other teachings that came out of it.



You can thank the Catholic church for that.

I don't thank any man made institution. But I daily thank my heavely Father, through Jesus Christ His Son my only Saviour, indwelt, fed and led by God's Spirit.

 

[Eirlysa]

I daily thank my heavely Father, through Jesus Christ His Son my only Saviour, indwelt, fed and led by God's Spirit.

Glory to God in all things. Peace be with you, and may you have a nice evening.

 

[savedbygrace05]

Glory to God in all things. Peace be with you, and may you have a nice evening.

You also. Evidently following our exchange, the reality of the reformation is still alive and well - which is why our 2 traditions will never see eye to eye this side of heaven.

 

[Paradoxum]

Of course we have choices - that is the very nature of free-will. But God never gives anyone more than they can handle with His grace. God alone knows the time and place and circumstances of someone's death. To willfully take your own life before that time is like saying, "God I don't trust you or your plans for my life."

Well if God knows when your will die he knows that you will take your own life and that will be your time. I also disagree that God wont give people more than they can handle.

Being a Christian is to suffer. Redemptive suffering is to say, "God, I give you my pain that you may use it for your glory." When Jesus said to us, take up your cross and follow me, He didn't say it would be easy. In fact, He said it would be very hard. You must die to self. You must descrease so that He may increase, and that involves suffering. If you offer that suffering up to God, he can use it for the betterment of both your soul and others.

Some people go through easily and others very hard as Christians. I think it is easy to say all this. To force another to live it is another. Even if you are right, that gives you no right to force a non-Christian (or even a Christian) to live according to your values.

Don't you realize that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, who lives in you and was given to you by God? You do not belong to yourself. - 1 Corinthians 6:19.

Then whos to say the Holy Spirit isn't offended by ones needless suffering.

What can be better than life? It is the greatest gift that anyone can have bestowed upon them. We do not own our lives and our time here is short. If God is love, as the bible tells us, and if our sufferings and prayers can benefit other people or bring glory to God, then we, as Christians, should let them. As Jesus said: no greater love has this than a man who lays down his life for his friends.

God doesn't need our prayer. I'm sure He is glorified by compassion more than prayer. You might or you might not do much good in your suffering, but people die and they should be glad they lived as long as they did. It is good to live longer generally, but sometimes there is no problem in realising it is time to say goodbye.... even if it is hard.

Correction, I said unbiblical nonesense. I don't care what this, or any other website considers to be Christian, I have the Makers (God's) manual and that is good enough for me Thanks.

Do you ever doubt your interpretation?

 

[savedbygrace05]

As a Christian, I never doubt God's Word

 

[Eirlysa]

Well if God knows when your will die he knows that you will take your own life and that will be your time. I also disagree that God wont give people more than they can handle.

I'm not forcing anyone to live by my values, per say. Indeed if someone is intent on ending their own life, then they will find a way eventually - no matter what. This was true in the case of my best friend, who sadly took her own life a few years ago at the age of just 20.

What I'm saying is that for most people, this is done out of fear (ie. of suffering, of pain, of becoming a burden, of losing control). I do not believe that suicide is a rational thought process. Suicide tends to be a sort-of "last option" for people who see no other way. And I think it's such a horrible thing that some people can reach the conclusion that having a chronic illness, or being paralyzed, or suffering pain means that they can't continue to contribute to life.

There was as case quite locally to me a few years ago of a guy in his early 20s who was paralyzed from the neck-down in a sporting accident. He chose to end his life because he couldn't play his sport any more and to him life wasn't worth living without that. With time and with counseling, who is to say that he could not have found something else to live for? He was so young.

As a Christian, is it important - at least for me - to defend the sanctity of all life. Every life is valuable and precious before God. And people who are depressed and lost should be reached out to and comforted, given hope and support to find a new purpose in their lives and in their struggles, so they can find the courage to pick up their cross and follow Him.

 

[Paradoxum]

I'm not forcing anyone to live by my values, per say. Indeed if someone is intent on ending their own life, then they will find a way eventually - no matter what. This was true in the case of my best friend, who sadly took her own life a few years ago at the age of just 20.

I would think in some conditions it might be quite hard to do it oneself without being saved or failing. If by law you wish to ban an act then there should be a good reason, rather than the other way round. I'm sorry to hear about your friend though. 20 is too young.

What I'm saying is that for most people, this is done out of fear (ie. of suffering, of pain, of becoming a burden, of losing control). I do not believe that suicide is a rational thought process. Suicide tends to be a sort-of "last option" for people who see no other way. And I think it's such a horrible thing that some people can reach the conclusion that having a chronic illness, or being paralyzed, or suffering pain means that they can't continue to contribute to life.

Well that is fair enough. In cases where there is hope for a future there is nothing wrong with counselling and one must be careful with depression. But if after counselling one can show a long term will to die then it should at least be considered. I don't think it should be easy for a young person to choose death.

There was as case quite locally to me a few years ago of a guy in his early 20s who was paralyzed from the neck-down in a sporting accident. He chose to end his life because he couldn't play his sport any more and to him life wasn't worth living without that. With time and with counseling, who is to say that he could not have found something else to live for? He was so young.

He probably could have done. I'm not saying what he should or shouldn't do, so much as I want the full number of options open, but full support for that person too.

As a Christian, is it important - at least for me - to defend the sanctity of all life. Every life is valuable and precious before God. And people who are depressed and lost should be reached out to and comforted, given hope and support to find a new purpose in their lives and in their struggles, so they can find the courage to pick up their cross and follow Him.

I agree that life is valuable and that people who are depressed should be helped. But it is possible to choose to die when one isn't depressed. This is demonstrated by some people to travel to die 'with dignity' before the fullness of terrible diseases take over the mind.

 

[Eirlysa]

The way I look at it is this.. if there was a mentally ill person with an irrational thought process who repeatedly ran into busy traffic, would it be okay to respect their wishes and just leave him there to, inevitably, be struck by a car and potentially die?

The same could be argued for people who are seeking to end their own lives due to fear of what's to come, pain, depression, etc. Should we just leave them to wander head-long into that busy road?

For example, who is to say that the suffering of a teenager who has just failed his most important class in school, been dumped by his girlfriend, and been kicked off the sports team, isn't a suffering too great for him to bear? What if he thinks it is? Do we allow him to commit suicide -- because he has the right to determine the end of his life -- or do we call a crisis hotline? The question is critical, because either people do not have the right to end their lives in any circumstance, or else they do have that right, and the circumstances don't matter.

 

[Paradoxum]

The way I look at it is this.. if there was a mentally ill person with an irrational thought process who repeatedly ran into busy traffic, would it be okay to respect their wishes and just leave him there to, inevitably, be struck by a car and potentially die?

No.

The same could be argued for people who are seeking to end their own lives due to fear of what's to come, pain, depression, etc. Should we just leave them to wander head-long into that busy road?

It depends upon the condition of their choice and circumstances. In the specific circumstance they should probably be stopped so that it doesn't mentally scare the people in the cars.

For example, who is to say that the suffering of a teenager who has just failed his most important class in school, been dumped by his girlfriend, and been kicked off the sports team, isn't a suffering too great for him to bear?

Are you trying to say that something like that can't be gotten over? I am talking about circumstances which are generally beyond reasonable hope. Also if they are a minor then they couldn't anyway.

What if he thinks it is? Do we allow him to commit suicide -- because he has the right to determine the end of his life -- or do we call a crisis hotline?

Call the crisis hotline. Have I ever said that if someone wants to die then they should instantly be allowed to die without help?

The question is critical, because either people do not have the right to end their lives in any circumstance, or else they do have that right, and the circumstances don't matter.

That isn't how rights work. They are more nuanced and detailed. For example a right to privacy doesn't mean you have a right never to be seen doing anything you don't want seen.

You make it sound like I want people to die, no questions asked. I'm saying that people should be allowed to make a reasoned choice to end their lives, but of course we must know it is reasoned to be able to allow it. This involves things like giving support first.

 

[Eirlysa]

It depends upon the condition of their choice and circumstances. In the specific circumstance they should probably be stopped so that it doesn't mentally scare the people in the cars.

You make it sound like I want people to die, no questions asked. I'm saying that people should be allowed to make a reasoned choice to end their lives, but of course we must know it is reasoned to be able to allow it. This involves things like giving support first.

We must know? Who are you talking about here? I mean, who ultimately do you think should get to decide who lives and dies if not that person themselves (which you've rightly pointed out is not a good idea) or God, the author of our lives?

Who gets to decide that a "person is beyond hope"? No one is beyond hope so long as they are alive. Hope is one of the three theological virtues. Hope is opposed to the sins of despair and presumption. In Epistle to the Hebrews in the NT, it is described as "an anchor of the soul".

So, who should decide.. should it be the hospital that wants to free up those beds taken by the long-term sick? Should it be the family who can't wait to cash in on that inheritance money?

Should it be the drug companies that stand to make millions off of vulnerable people feeling as though they cannot go on as they are and choosing to end their lives?

No one wants to see people, especially not people they care about and love, suffering. Physical evil as well as moral evil is a result of original sin. Diseases, illnesses, and disabilities are results of the fallen state of this world.

But God is so great He can turn bad into good.

People suffer so that works of God can be made manifest in them. If no one suffered then there would be no works of charity, for who would be sick to comfort? Who would be poor to feed?

God turned the death of his only son into the life of all nations. Who is to say that by letting people suffer, He is not working for their - or their families - greater good?

 

[SithDoughnut]

People suffer so that works of God can be made manifest in them. If no one suffered then there would be no works of charity, for who would be sick to comfort? Who would be poor to feed?

That is quite a disturbing way of looking at the world. You honestly think that it is better that people suffer so they can be helped rather than no one suffer at all? That's like a doctor saying that he stabs his patients so he can help them recover.

 

[savedbygrace05]

People suffer so that works of God can be made manifest in them. If no one suffered then there would be no works of charity, for who would be sick to comfort? Who would be poor to feed?

Not so. Suffering in creation and common to all human beings is due to original sin and rebellion in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3), which has continued ever since.

Creation, including humanity are under a curse, which will continue until Jesus returns, when the curse will be reversed, judgement will begin and God's people will know the final and full reality of Salvation.

Rom 8: 18 - 21 "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God."

 

[Eirlysa]

Not so. Suffering in creation and common to all human beings is due to original sin and rebellion in the Garden of Eden (Gen 3), which has continued ever since.

If you had read my actual post, instead of just this quote, you would have seen that I referenced original sin and the fall. What I mean is that innocent people suffer as a result of the fallen state of the world, but God permits this because out of the suffering of the innocent, he can draw more people to him in their works of charity for the sick and suffering.

For example, an old man lies dying in hospital. His grandson, who was raised Christian but stopped going to church few years earlier, sees the pain and suffering that his grandfather is going through and as a result of that he goes to the hospital chapel and prays to God that his grandfather be comforted. This man's grandfather's suffering was a way for God to draw back this man to Himself. This is just one example of how God can bring good out of evil.

To be called to suffering in this life is to be called into the mystery of Christ's Passion and to co-operate in the redemption of mankind.

Pope John Paul II defined human suffering as "a great test not only of physical strength but also spiritual strength".

St. Paul understood this testing and the necessity to unite suffering to the suffering of Christ for the sake of the redemption of man when he wrote to the Christians at Colossus: "It makes me happy to be suffering for you now, and in my own body to make up all the hardships that still have to be undergone by Christ for the sake of His body, the Church, of which I was made a servant with the responsibility towards you that God gave to me."

Jesus willingly suffered to establish the Kingdom of Heaven on earth and anyone who continues in Christ's work and takes up the cross of our Lord must share in the suffering of that cross. In our suffering for the Kingdom we must unite our suffering to Christ's suffering and in that struggle some of us will be called to deep physical suffering while others to emotional suffering and persecution for the sake of the Kingdom.

"If we suffer with Christ, we will be glorified with Him. The fulfillment of the promised happiness is certain for those who share in the Lord's Passion." ~St. Leo the Great

"Apart from the cross there is no other ladder by which we may get to heaven." ~St. Rose of Lima

 

[Tenebrae]

It is illegal and it will always be immoral. The sanctity of life means that life is sacred and should be upheld at all costs ( a great pity that this is not the case for the unborn)

What about when that life is in constant pain

Or when that life is struggling .

Life is not ours to take, it is a gift of God. Because it is a gift of God it must be protected and cherished (even to the natural end).

Tell me why christians are against taking life because its against gods law, yet they have no problems with thwarting gods will by using medical science to extend life

Great strides have been made (and continues to do so in the UK) with regards pallative care, so there is no reason why people must have a painful end. There end may be difficult in the psychological realm, but that can be argued for everyone who is facing death!

Get back to me when you've nursed a terminal patient, who is drowning in their own fluids. A patient who wets the bed, but is in so much pain she begs you to not have to move her. A 85 year old patient who is so ravaged by cancer that you can lift her in your arms.

IF people of sound body and mind can legally record their wishes not to be kept alive in the event of a terminal illness they should be allowed. There does need to be protections in place for people who cant make their own wishes known

No, it will never become illegal in the UK, neither will the death penalty be re-introduced.

 

[Tenebrae]

Suicide isn't the cure for depression.

I'm certainly not advocating suicide as a cure for depression. However people who are suffering from a terminal illness and can be judged of sound body and mind should be able to say that in the event of terminal illness and suffering or prolonged vegitatve state they dont want to be kept alive