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[DeerGlow]

I believe this last portion of the blog gets to the point of their position.

"Therefore it is not what the sin is, but whether the sin results in the expulsion of the Holy Spirit and ones faith, that makes it a mortal sin or not."

Pretty much the expulsion of the HS and ones faith would cause that person to loose their salvation.

So a sin that does expel the HS (and faith?), like a mortal sin to whatever extent that is, can these be forgiven?

 

[tampasteve]

So a sin that does expel the HS (and faith?), like a mortal sin to whatever extent that is, can these be forgiven?

Absolutely they can be. As they can be in the RC too. If one repents and turns from the sinning ways they are forgiven by Christ.

 

[DeerGlow]

Absolutely they can be. As they can be in the RC too. If one repents and turns from the sinning ways they are forgiven by Christ.

Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?

 

[tampasteve]

Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?

No, I do not believe that is taught in the Lutheran Church. Many call it Mass, some the Divine Liturgy, some just church service.

 

[AMM]

Do you believe missing Mass (it's called mass for Lutherans too right?) is a mortal sin too?

That's not inherently a sin. Of course, we go to mass/the divine liturgy in order to be forgiven, so it could be sinful if one is intentionally avoiding going, but if your car breaks down on Sunday morning we wouldn't say you sinned by missing. Alternatively, if you skip mass so that you can avoid a confrontation with the pastor because you know you committed a grievous sin and don't want to repent, well, that would be sinful (but really the root problem would be the previous sin and refusal to repent, not the skipping of mass)

as for mortal/venial sins, we do make that distinction as said. Generally a mortal sin would be any sin that was intentionally committed when you knew it was sinful. Alternatively some people have said (and I'd agree) that a mortal sin is one that you don't believe you need to confess. E.g., "oh it's just a tiny lie, that's fine, I don't need to confess that" you're in very dangerous territory. A venial sin would be one that you recognize as sin and seek to confess even if it's "oh snap, just killed a man, put a gun against his head, pulled my trigger and now he's dead what was I doing, Lord have mercy on me, save me from my sins!" and you run to a pastor to confess as soon as possible, that'd be a venial sin.

It's very different from Rome's understanding, I believe, but like we've been saying this is not a well-defined area within lutheranism

 

[DeerGlow]

Thanks for all of your responses, I will think about them and let you know when I have more questions.

 

[DeerGlow]

I'm back.... What is the view of Mary and the Saints? And Lent? How do you do Lent (like I think Catholics can't have red meat on Fridays) and how is it viewed?

 

[tampasteve]

I'm back.... What is the view of Mary and the Saints? And Lent? How do you do Lent (like I think Catholics can't have red meat on Fridays) and how is it viewed?

Here is a pretty good idea of what Lutheran believe about Mary:The mother of our church? - Living Lutheran

Along with the broad tradition of Christianity, Lutherans do address Mary by the title: mother of God. That is actually a technical title (“Theotokos” in Greek) affirmed by the ecumenical council of Ephesus in 431. Martin Luther himself spoke of Mary with great reverence and respect, and Lutherans ought to continue to do so.

And

As Lutherans, we respect Mary and we look to her example of faithfulness. But we bring our intercessions to Christ, our great high priest before the throne of God.

And from the Augsburg Confession (a very important book on Lutheran beliefs)

Christ “alone has promised to hear our prayers. According to Scripture, in all our needs and concerns it is the highest worship to seek and call upon this same Jesus Christ with our whole heart.” (Augsburg Confession 21)

As for Lent, for Catholics it is a sacred Tradition and required. Lutherans believe that it is a valuable learning time and worth pursuing with spiritual contemplation and solemnity, but it is voluntary and not obligatory. As you said, most Catholics do not eat meat on Fridays in Lent, there are no such restrictions on Lutherans. However, many of the liturgical changes during Lent at Mass are the same in both the RCC and Lutheran Church, and many Lutherans practice similar Lentan devotions such as the stations of the Cross or similar prayers.

 

[AMM]

I'm back.... What is the view of Mary and the Saints? And Lent? How do you do Lent (like I think Catholics can't have red meat on Fridays) and how is it viewed?

Mary is the Theotokos (mother of God), she was a virgin when she conceived, gave birth, and remained a virgin after Christ's birth. She is "blessed amongst women" to all generations and should be greatly honored for she is the ark that carried Immanuel by God's grace. That said, Lutherans don't worship her, nor pray to her.

Similar with the other saints. We don't pray to them, but we do honor them. From the Augsburg Confession:

4] Our Confession approves honors to the saints. For here a threefold honor is to be approved. The first is thanksgiving. For we ought to give thanks to God because He has shown examples of mercy; because He has shown that He wishes to save men; because He has given teachers or other gifts to the Church. And these gifts, as they are the greatest, should be amplified, and the saints themselves should be praised, who have faithfully used these gifts, just as Christ praises faithful business-men, 5] Matt. 25:21, 23. The second service is the strengthening of our faith; when we see the denial forgiven Peter, we also are encouraged to believe the more that grace 6] truly superabounds over sin, Rom. 5:20. The third honor is the imitation, first, of faith, then of the other virtues, which every one should imitate according to his calling. 7] These true honors the adversaries do not require. They dispute only concerning invocation, which, even though it would have no danger, nevertheless is not necessary.

Another bit on fasting, just to elaborate on tampasteve, we don't require specific fasting practices during lent, but we do encourage it. People can choose what sort of fasts they want to do though, usually chosen with their pastor's advice. So some people will end up following the Roman practice, others won't, but we don't view anyone as better or worse than another.

From the Augsburg Confession:

33] Moreover, they teach that every Christian ought to train and subdue himself with bodily restraints, or bodily exercises and labors that neither satiety nor slothfulness tempt him to sin, but not that we may merit grace or make satisfaction for sins by such exercises. 34] And such external discipline ought to be urged at all times, not only on a few and set days. So Christ commands, 35] Luke 21:34: Take heed lest your hearts 36] be overcharged with surfeiting; also Matt. 17:21: This kind goeth not out but 37] by prayer and fasting. Paul also says, 1 Cor. 9:27: I keep under my body and bring it into subjection. 38] Here he clearly shows that he was keeping under his body, not to merit forgiveness of sins by that discipline, but to have his body in subjection and fitted for spiritual things, and for the discharge of duty according 39] to his calling. Therefore, we do not condemn fasting in itself, but the traditions which prescribe certain days and certain meats, with peril of conscience, as though such works were a necessary service.

40] Nevertheless, very many traditions are kept on our part, which conduce to good order in the Church, as the Order of Lessons 41] in the Mass and the chief holy-days. But, at the same time, men are warned that such observances do not justify before God, and that in such things it should not be made sin if they be omitted without offense. 42] Such liberty in human rites was not unknown to the Fathers. 43] For in the East they kept Easter at another time than at Rome, and when, on account of this diversity, the Romans accused the Eastern Church of schism, they were admonished by others 44] that such usages need not be alike everywhere. And Irenaeus says: Diversity concerning fasting does not destroy the harmony of faith; as also Pope Gregory intimates in Dist. XII, that such diversity does not violate the unity of the Church. 45] And in the Tripartite History, Book 9, many examples of dissimilar rites are gathered, and the following statement is made: It was not the mind of the Apostles to enact rules concerning holy-days, but to preach godliness and a holy life [to teach faith and love].

 

[DeerGlow]

Mary is the Theotokos (mother of God), she was a virgin when she conceived, gave birth, and remained a virgin after Christ's birth. She is "blessed amongst women" to all generations and should be greatly honored for she is the ark that carried Immanuel by God's grace. That said, Lutherans don't worship her, nor pray to her.

Similar with the other saints. We don't pray to them, but we do honor them. From the Augsburg Confession:


Another bit on fasting, just to elaborate on tampasteve, we don't require specific fasting practices during lent, but we do encourage it. People can choose what sort of fasts they want to do though, usually chosen with their pastor's advice. So some people will end up following the Roman practice, others won't, but we don't view anyone as better or worse than another.

From the Augsburg Confession:

I don't mean to debate but as an honest question, how do people say Mary remained a virgin? It seems like in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 the other people say Jesus has (half-)brothers and sisters. I do not say this to attack you, I really do not understand this.

 

[tampasteve]

I don't mean to debate but as an honest question, how do people say Mary remained a virgin? It seems like in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 the other people say Jesus has (half-)brothers and sisters. I do not say this to attack you, I really do not understand this.

It's a little more complicated. Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and many (most?) Lutherans still do, at least by Creed if not in faith. The belief in her virginity is an ancient one among the church, but there are reasonable arguments that can be made that she had other children. However the LCMS - Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not follow this belief and finds that there is a possibility that Mary and Joseph had other children.

I'm an sure we could deliver further into it....but the discussion gets pretty deep fast - so might be better as it's own thread.

In short, not all Lutherans hold to this belief, and the second largest synod in the USA (LCMS) does not. I believe the largest, ELCA, officially holds the belief, but as I said...many parishioners do not. I do hold to it myself as I find the evidence against it circumstantial and speculative at best and the Tradition has held this belief for centuries.

 

[AMM]

I don't mean to debate but as an honest question, how do people say Mary remained a virgin? It seems like in Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56 the other people say Jesus has (half-)brothers and sisters. I do not say this to attack you, I really do not understand this.

It's a little more complicated. Luther believed in the perpetual virginity of Mary, and many (most?) Lutherans still do, at least by Creed if not in faith. The belief in her virginity is an ancient one among the church, but there are reasonable arguments that can be made that she had other children. However the LCMS - Lutheran Church Missouri Synod does not follow this belief and finds that there is a possibility that Mary and Joseph had other children.

I'm an sure we could deliver further into it....but the discussion gets pretty deep fast - so might be better as it's own thread.

In short, not all Lutherans hold to this belief, and the second largest synod in the USA (LCMS) does not. I believe the largest, ELCA, officially holds the belief, but as I said...many parishioners do not. I do hold to it myself as I find the evidence against it circumstantial and speculative at best and the Tradition has held this belief for centuries.

To clarify: the LCMS (my synod) does not officially teach that she did or did not have further children, but acknowledges the possibility.

There are arguments on both sides; it does get technical and complicated, so I would support starting another thread specifically on the topic. In short though, the greek in those verses could easily refer to Jesus' cousins or step-brothers (Joseph's children from a previous marriage). Many Lutherans will disagree on this, but I am with tampasteve -- tradition has believed this without questioning as early as the 4th century for certain (Ambrose clearly confessed this), probably before then.

 

[tampasteve]

To clarify: the LCMS (my synod) does not officially teach that she did or did not have further children, but acknowledges the possibility.

There are arguments on both sides; it does get technical and complicated, so I would support starting another thread specifically on the topic. In short though, the greek in those verses could easily refer to Jesus' cousins or step-brothers (Joseph's children from a previous marriage). Many Lutherans will disagree on this, but I am with tampasteve -- tradition has believed this without questioning as early as the 4th century for certain (Ambrose clearly confessed this), probably before then.

Thanks for the clarification, I'm ELCA myself.

 

[DeerGlow]

Thank you both for the responses.

 

[DeerGlow]

Is the Large catechism anywhere on here? I see the Small catechism in a sticky thread but not large....

 

[tampasteve]

Here is a link to the entire Book of Concord, including the Large Catechism:
The Large Catechism - Book of Concord

 

[John the Ex-Baptist]

Checking in from Southampton, U.K.. I've been a Lutheran for years and only recently realised it!! Currently going through confirmation classes with my pastor at Our Saviour Lutheran Church in Fareham, U.K..

 

[Tigger45]

Welcome to TCL John!

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I'm cautiously back. Lightly at first. Just to see if the site and myself have evolved so as to make my participation mutually good.

 

[brinny]

I'm cautiously back. Lightly at first. Just to see if the site and myself have evolved so as to make my participation mutually good.

'Tis soooo good to see you Josiah.