Visions and dreams

[JJB]

Cessation of the charismatic gifts, as I understand that, is the position in reformed theology. I was perusing mslick.com which contain writings from three well-respected reformed fellows who had what I would consider charismatic experiences: dreams, visions and audible voices.

I am wondering how these are viewed by folks here? It's not for debate purposes, but to get a better understanding myself.

The three men? John Knox, Wishart (sp?) and Robert Fleming.

 

[Knight]

Since no one else was brave enough to tackle this...

Honestly, I'm always skeptical of these kinds of experiences. Granted, I come from a very conservative background.
I hold nothing against those who claim them provided they do not place them on a higher authority than Scripture. (Which often happens.)

The bottom line is this: There is no real objective way to prove that what they experience comes from God. Nor is there a way to definitively prove the opposite.

I urge a few cautions in dealing with things like this:

1) Never place these experiences on a higher place of authority than the Bible.

2) Always subject what these experiences teach to the word of God.

3) Do not think that these things, in any way, elevate these people to a higher authority.

 

[janny108]

I've been a Pentecostal for years and recently became a PCA church MEMEBER! (Yay!) So I have had experience with this kind of thing. I came to understand recently that when you go to church, the gifts are operating ALREADY.

Likely, someone is there to greet you, someone has made the coffee, someone else has cleaned the church, the pastor is getting ready to preach, there are ushers, etc. The gifts are already happening!

I think what most people associate with gifts is sort of a extra-ordinary experience. In fact, IMO some groups are chasing after such an experience.

In the church I was going to then, and also NOW, the gifts were about people serving and loving each other.

Jan

 

[calmcoolandelected]

JJB,


I have not read any of the three you mentioned. Thanks for posting this though. I have charasmaniac relatives and I am always studying "the gifts". I have always had a Reformed influence since God revealed Himself to me so I don't really understand many of the charasmaniac elements.

CC&E

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I've been a Pentecostal for years and recently became a PCA church MEMEBER! (Yay!) So I have had experience with this kind of thing. I came to understand recently that when you go to church, the gifts are operating ALREADY.

Likely, someone is there to greet you, someone has made the coffee, someone else has cleaned the church, the pastor is getting ready to preach, there are ushers, etc. The gifts are already happening!

I think what most people associate with gifts is sort of a extra-ordinary experience. In fact, IMO some groups are chasing after such an experience.

In the church I was going to then, and also NOW, the gifts were about people serving and loving each other.

Jan

I just love it when someone at church laments about not knowing what their "spiritual gifts" are! I put them to work. I never knew twenty years ago when I was asked to fill-in for Sunday School that I'd be coordinating the children's ministries at my church presently. I would have missed a calling had I not gone out of my comfort zone. I sure wish more folks would stop navel-gazing and serve others. But, that is another discussion for another thread on another day!

CC&E

 

[calmcoolandelected]

I've been a Pentecostal for years and recently became a PCA church MEMEBER! (Yay!) So I have had experience with this kind of thing. I came to understand recently that when you go to church, the gifts are operating ALREADY.


I think what most people associate with gifts is sort of a extra-ordinary experience. In fact, IMO some groups are chasing after such an experience.

In the church I was going to then, and also NOW, the gifts were about people serving and loving each other.

Jan

Jan,

Since I have no personal experience with the charasmatic gifts, I have a question. Would you say that the gifts are more man-centered or Christ-centered?

CC&E

 

[JJB]

Thanks to all of you who posted for being brave. I am becoming aware that this topic is rather divisive in reformed circles. That was not my intent in posting.

Wandering Knight, you make very good points. I also think that experiences like the ones described in the links are not to be chased after. If they serve no purpose other than to create excitement or desire for more, then I presume they are not of God.

Janny, I agree that gifts are already in service at every worship service we attend.

I guess I am not that interested in tongues. Tongues, I think are easy to see if they are of God or not, and the Bible is very clear on that topic. The experiences described by Knox, et al., remind me of much of Acts. If you want to read them, I linked them below.

http://www.mslick.com/knox.htm

http://www.mslick.com/fleming.htm

http://www.mslick.com/wishart.htm

 

[cygnusx1]

Cessation of the charismatic gifts, as I understand that, is the position in reformed theology. I was perusing mslick.com which contain writings from three well-respected reformed fellows who had what I would consider charismatic experiences: dreams, visions and audible voices.

I am wondering how these are viewed by folks here? It's not for debate purposes, but to get a better understanding myself.

The three men? John Knox, Wishart (sp?) and Robert Fleming.

Hi JJB , I don't doubt them at all , Visions and dreams , and special guidance healings etc etc I do believe are still around today .

But that isn't the same as the Gifts ministered in the early Church which were for the benefit of all , with rules etc .

Personally I have only ever had one vision , and I didn't expect it , it came during communion just after a preacher spent an hour preaching against this type of thing!

I consider myself a cessasionist for the most part , certainly with regard to Apostles and Prophets , and "signs of an Apostle" .

I still believe in the miraculous (so called) but don't see them as .... "gifts of the spirit in a Church meeting" 1 Corinthians.

 

[McWilliams]

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=7150201117This sermon really clarified it for me after many years of hearing of the gifts from an Assembly of God pastor/father.

This is so biblically sound, at least for me that I saw this with new perspective and understanding.
There is a followup sermon on this topic also.
I know we're all gifted by the Holy Spirit to live and work for Him. In this sermon my concern was regarding the experiential, outward signs, as tongues, visions, dreams and so on.
Still much learning to be found in this area!

 

[Knight]

Wandering Knight, you make very good points. I also think that experiences like the ones described in the links are not to be chased after. If they serve no purpose other than to create excitement or desire for more, then I presume they are not of God.

Wandering????

 

[JJB]

Wandering????

I'm sorry, Knight. :o Don't know why I put that in there . Maybe there's someone else here at CF with the wandering in front.

 

[hlaltimus]

My past pastor of the O.P.C. Church where I attend is as Reformed as they come, and even he admits that many Christians have had visions of heaven upon their deathbeds.

 

[Knight]

I'm sorry, Knight. :o Don't know why I put that in there . Maybe there's someone else here at CF with the wandering in front.

No problem.

Just got a little confused...

 

[janny108]

Jan,

Since I have no personal experience with the charasmatic gifts, I have a question. Would you say that the gifts are more man-centered or Christ-centered?

CC&E

The gifts are meant to be used IN THE CHURCH for the building up of the saints. I've heard people say I have the gift of __ or __ and not use it for the benefit of any church body.

1 Corinthians 12-14 talk about the gifts, also Romans 12. The are also 5 gift ministries in the church Ephesians 4:11 says. As far as man or God centered, the idea is God enabling saints to serve, BUT.. like anything God gives us the ability to do, it CAN become man centered if we are not careful to do it for the glory of God!

Yesterday I went to a holiday brunch, which is a monthly ladies group. Someone prayed, another led the devotion, and someone else sort of coordinated the whole thing. God gives all abilities to use, as long as the focus is on God and not people, things will go the way it will be pleasing to God.

I might add that I'm in a fairly small church, and I feel if anything became man centered, it would be evident sooner or later!

Jan

 

[JJB]

Hi JJB , I don't doubt them at all , Visions and dreams , and special guidance healings etc etc I do believe are still around today .

But that isn't the same as the Gifts ministered in the early Church which were for the benefit of all , with rules etc .

Personally I have only ever had one vision , and I didn't expect it , it came during communion just after a preacher spent an hour preaching against this type of thing!

I consider myself a cessasionist for the most part , certainly with regard to Apostles and Prophets , and "signs of an Apostle" .

I still believe in the miraculous (so called) but don't see them as .... "gifts of the spirit in a Church meeting" 1 Corinthians.

Thanks Cygnus. I can agree wholeheartedly with your first two paragraphs. I have, since starting this thread, read Ephesians 4; 1 Cor 12 and 14; Romans 12. I do not recall reading about "signs of an Apostle". Can you point me in that direction? Perhaps I have a diff translation, just don't want to miss it.

I have had several experiences that I think were of God form my own edification. It was not asked for by me, nor expected. I guess ever since I continue to try to understand if my experiences truly were from God. That's why I'm asking about it.

It is a topic that is hard to talk about with other believers without automatically being brushed off as ridiculous.

 

[cygnusx1]

Thanks Cygnus. I can agree wholeheartedly with your first two paragraphs. I have, since starting this thread, read Ephesians 4; 1 Cor 12 and 14; Romans 12. I do not recall reading about "signs of an Apostle". Can you point me in that direction? Perhaps I have a diff translation, just don't want to miss it.

I have had several experiences that I think were of God form my own edification. It was not asked for by me, nor expected. I guess ever since I continue to try to understand if my experiences truly were from God. That's why I'm asking about it.

It is a topic that is hard to talk about with other believers without automatically being brushed off as ridiculous.

hi JJB

I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I am not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong! (2 Corinthians 12:11-13 RSV)

the vision I had was in scripture , but I didn't know that for a year!

 

[McWilliams]

We all know that dreams of any nature can occur! I've had some rather wild ones myself, being chased through deep water, riding a rapidly decending elevator that has no sides, clinging to the floor! We have them, but put no importance or stock in them! Our natures are sinful, not to be relied on!
The Word of God is that one valid thing in which to put our whole trust and reliance, not on our experiences! Who should care if I have this dream of ascending in a white gown into the clouds, calling others to come with me! Ridiculous and also dangerous stuff there!
When God closed His book, He most clearly stated that He did exactly that! Again our focus is on God, what He does, who He is, what He has clearly stated for us to do and to be concerned with!
People who become very concerned with dreams and visions and experiences are walking a dangerous path! He told us to 'study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!'2 Tim 2:15
He also instructed that we examine ourself to be sure we're in the faith! When we do so and find a growing interest in dreams, visions, experiences, deathbed occurences we immediately go back to God's Word and seek His face, His truth!
Anyone can dream anything but I certainly dont want to state my eternity on such! If it should drive you back to study the Word, then it would be a good thing, only then! The great danger is that it encourages an 'other than bible focus'!

 

[JJB]

hi JJB

I have been a fool! You forced me to it, for I ought to have been commended by you. For I am not at all inferior to these superlative apostles, even though I am nothing. The signs of a true apostle were performed among you in all patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works. For in what were you less favored than the rest of the churches, except that I myself did not burden you? Forgive me this wrong! (2 Corinthians 12:11-13 RSV)

the vision I had was in scripture , but I didn't know that for a year!

Thanks again cygnusx1

 

[JJB]

We all know that dreams of any nature can occur! I've had some rather wild ones myself, being chased through deep water, riding a rapidly decending elevator that has no sides, clinging to the floor! We have them, but put no importance or stock in them! Our natures are sinful, not to be relied on!
The Word of God is that one valid thing in which to put our whole trust and reliance, not on our experiences! Who should care if I have this dream of ascending in a white gown into the clouds, calling others to come with me! Ridiculous and also dangerous stuff there!
When God closed His book, He most clearly stated that He did exactly that! Again our focus is on God, what He does, who He is, what He has clearly stated for us to do and to be concerned with!
People who become very concerned with dreams and visions and experiences are walking a dangerous path! He told us to 'study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth!'2 Tim 2:15
He also instructed that we examine ourself to be sure we're in the faith! When we do so and find a growing interest in dreams, visions, experiences, deathbed occurences we immediately go back to God's Word and seek His face, His truth!
Anyone can dream anything but I certainly dont want to state my eternity on such! If it should drive you back to study the Word, then it would be a good thing, only then! The great danger is that it encourages an 'other than bible focus'!

Do not fear, my dear sister in the Lord, that I would abandon my God for a mere dream (which was not my experience). He will keep me on the straight path. It's not something foremost in my mind, nor do I stake my faith on it. That's why I search the scriptures, for confirmation or denial.