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Virginia Tech and Calvinism

cygnusx1

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No-one denies sinners resist God , in fact it is a forgone conclusion of mans total depravity.


Of course every Calvinist writer will grant spontanious actions of men (Judas was not forced at gun point to betray Christ ) while at the same time recognising God reigns over all events , the decree of God according to Calvinists is both permissive (God permits sin) and efficient (God directs all events for good) ...... is that fatalism ? Hardly!

Fatalism does not recognise a reason , there is no rhyme or reason in "fate" , and genuine secondary causes are none existent in a fatalistic world , ie, it matters not one jot if you repent or not , you are going to heaven or hell anyway........ that is fatalism!!! , and that is diametricaly opposed to what Calvinist's teach and believe !

Supposing a none elect person were to seek God , call upon the Lord , and trust in Jesus for salvation , is it true that Jesus would slam the door in his face and say "sorry , you are not chosen , I refuse to save you" ......... OF COURSE NOT , THE VERY IDEA IS PERVERSE !


(For anyone interested in the difference between fatalism (as conceived by Islam ) and Biblical Predestination and foreordination as concieved by the Reformed Church's post number 55 of the thread linked below may help , if you find within you a strong bias and an antagonism towards God's absolute Sovereignty then nothing will help and this post is not for you )

http://www.christianforums.com/t3140...sm.html&page=6
 
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5SolasMan

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I believe it was an event carried out by an unregenerate soul. And someday and in some way, it will glorify God.

I'm curious about your comment on "Chosen By God". I have it on my shelf but have yet to read it. Dr. Sproul follows the WCF so I'm surprised to hear that something he wrote doesn't line up with it.
 
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Boxmaker

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Read it and see what you think. Sproul says early in the book that God has predetermined everything. He uses the example of a stray molecule prventing the Return of Christ. To ensure that doesn't happen, God predetermined everything. Note that he says God predetermined EVERYTHING.

Skip ahead a few chapters to where he discuses God hardening a heart. He explains that God just removes His hand from this persons heart and lets that person's sinful heart do the rest. That implies that God lets that person do as they will. How does that square with God predetermining everything?

It would seem that God removes His hand but has already predetermined that when He removes His hand, that person would pick-up a 9mm and a .22, chain the doors and open fire. For His glory.

Why did God send Noah's flood?
 
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cygnusx1

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I don't see your problem at all

when you sit down for a meal with your family do you use a knife and fork ?
 
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Boxmaker

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Any Calvinist writer that grants the spontanious actions of men is not a believer in Calvinism. According the Westminster Confession, there is no spontanious actions as God has preordained whatsovere comes to pass. (See chapter 3)

The very idea is Calvinistic. None but the elect are capable of seeking God. The total depravity of the none elect will prevent them from seeking God. The door was never open for the non-elect, they were never chosen. Thats Calvinism, there are the elect and the non-elect. Predestined before the foundatioins of the world were laid to live in heaven or burn in hell.
 
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cygnusx1

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Boxmaker

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try reading the confession again , it is very clear that secondary causes (man's will) are intact!

The truth , and I know you cannot see it , is that the free actions of men are all foreordained , yes , all of them.

Foreordained free will?


And only the elect are capable of responding. Only they have the regenerate heart to allow them to responde. That is what Calvinism says. R.C. Sproul makes no bones about it. He teaches that there is double election - those elected for heaven and those elected for hell. Your passage to me about what Calvinism is does not square with Sproul. Which Calvinism is the correct Calvinism?
 
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cygnusx1

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Foreordained free will?


Right! Only I don't like the term "Free-will" because it means different things to different people. Unforced will is better.

Now I ask you to quote from the Westminster Confession IN FULL this time , don't try implying the Confession merely says all things (they are) are foreordained by God , you are misleading the reader by using only a part of that confession , just as I woukld be if I said "go and hate your parents" Jesus said so!



The pictures bigger than that , all you are doing is trying to reduce things , I can do that ; God is Sovereign and man is a stinking wretch!
what you need to do is ask some preliminary inquieries , like , *how is it that sin can be predicted if the future is open and free of God's control................
 
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Boxmaker

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CHAPTER III.
Of God's Eternal Decree.
I. God from all eternity did by the most and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

Note that the second clause (red) is in contridiction of the first clause (blue). THe first clause states very clearly that God has ordained EVERYTHING that comes to pass. No exceptions. The second clause then states that God is not responsible for the things He ordains.

I am sorry, but that glaring contridiction collapses the confession like a house divided against itself. You may believe it but I find that it does not fit with God as He revealed Himself in scripture.


We are wretched but we are God's creation and He has set about to redeem us. Calvinism assumes that God is restricted by time. God can ordain what will be but once that is done He can never interfere with it again. (Please refer to the first clause of Chapter 3 of the WCF highlighted in blue above for support of that statement.)

God is not subject time. God created time. He can move through time and has perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future. He knows who will accept His sacrifice and who will not because He can see through time in a way we cannot. God created man with free will. Again, that will is only free to choose from what is available. Our choice is not infinite nor is it restrained. We must choose. Just as Adam chose to sin, so to must each of us choose Christ as our saviour. That choice is not independant of God. A meaningful choice for Christ requires that Christ moves in our lives. Having been created in God's image, we know that something is missing from our lives. When Christ shows us what is missing, we can respond to that and ask Jesus back into our heart. As Adam kicked God out of His heart, now we must open our hearts back up to Him.

May the Peace of Christ be with you this week.
 
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GrinningDwarf

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this...and we're probably at an impasse. The second clause does not contradict, but clarifies.

You may believe it but I find that it does not fit with God as He revealed Himself in scripture.

Actually...it is exactly as God reveals Himself in Scripture. "What you meant for evil, God meant for good..." while at the same time, the perpetrators of the evil are still held responsible and accountable for their actions. Look at some of the Old Testament prophecies...how God tells Israel that He is going to bring other nations against them in judgement...and then He turns around and tells the other nations that they will not escape judgement for their actions against Israel.

EDIT: When I had originally posted this, I couldn't remember the exact Scriptures. Try reading Isaiah 10...


It clearly says that God is sending the Assyrians against Israel. It doesn't say that God is simply allowing the Assyrians to move against Israel. The Assyrians were a tool in God's hand...even though their motives were entirely different from God's...



Their motives were quite different from God's...and God was going to hold them accountable for it even though they played exactly into God's plan...

ISA 10:12 When the Lord has finished all his work against Mount Zion and Jerusalem, he will say, "I will punish the king of Assyria for the willful pride of his heart and the haughty look in his eyes.

But then in our Enlightenment rationalization, we raise the question "How can this be fair? How can God hold us accountable for doing what he wanted us to do?!" Can you recognize anywhere else in Scripture where this same question was asked?



God is not subject time. God created time. He can move through time and has perfect knowledge of all things past, present and future. He knows who will accept His sacrifice and who will not because He can see through time in a way we cannot.

This view was satisfying for me while I still held to CS Lewis' explanation of how predestination works...but this view does not fit the actual grammar of Romans 9; therefore, it contradicts Scripture.
 
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cygnusx1

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Boxmaker

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cygnusx1

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Boxmaker

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bradfordl

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The ability to control things without predetermining every little action.
So God's a "big picture Guy", and leaves the little details to play out independently? He just channels the course of the river, not every little splash and eddy? Well, that may comfort you somewhat in your desire to retain for yourself some control, but the irony is that in your little paradigm it is not the "liitle actions" that are left unordained, but the major ones. Like the "decision" that saves a man - seems to be a tad important. Or the "decision" of a madman to end the lives of 31 human beings - is that a "little action"?

You're getting hardened, Box. We've seen the same incoherent rattletrap over and over in your attempt to hide your eyes from the glaring truth of God's absolute and infinitely meticulous control over all things. The scriptures declare it plainly. Nature itself screams it at you from every corner you lay your eyes upon. The only thing that denies it is your self-aggrandizing mindset that just refuses to acknowledge that God is nothing like you, that you are mere dust, and that the sole purpose of your existence is to glorify Him. You like the fairy tale that God sees you as something special, something worth going to all this trouble in creating the universe so He can give a special place in it. But this is not so. He has done all this for His Son, not you or me, and He loves us because of His Son, because by showing mercy to the elect He is glorifying His Son and Himself.

You may want the pre-emminence, but it belongs to Jesus, and His Father will not brook you stealing His Son's glory.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
 
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Boxmaker

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I most assuradly do not agree with that assesment of mankind. It is flat out wrong. The universe was not created for Jesus, it was created for us. When Adam and Eve sinned, God didn't abandon us, He set about to redeem us to Him. Jesus is our redemption, not the object of God's creation. Don't you see the love God has for us? We sinned. God wants us back. He wants us back so baddly that He created the perfect blood sacrifice so that our sin would be forgiven.

The fact that God sent Jesus to take our sins upon Him and die for them and rise again from the dead so that we might be redeemed to eternal life clearly indicates that God does not see us as insignificant specs of dust. God loves us more than we can possible understand.

I used to think, from my Catholic childhood, that God saw us as insignificant bugs. As I spent more time in scripture I learned that that is not true at all. God created us because He loves us and He wants us to love Him in return. Since sin prevented that, Jesus came and took our sins to the cross. When He died, the curtain that seperated the Holy of Holies from the rest of the temple was torn in half. That was God's message to the world that the wall of sin that had seperated the heart of man from the heart of God was forever torn down. It is now possible to have a relationship with God because the sin that seperated us from God is now behind Him, never to be remembered.
 
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UMP

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The universe was not created for Jesus, it was created for us.

Colossians 1:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
 
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Boxmaker

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Colossians 1:
[16] For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Yes we were created for communion with God, we were created for God.


Pretty amazing isn't it. God loves us so much that He, as Jesus, died to redeem us to Him, to put His created order back in the order that Adam and Eve interrupted.
 
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