Virginia Tech and Calvinism

Beoga · May 16, 2007

orthedoxy said:
If you say God didn't cause the evil event then how God is sovereign according to Calvinists.
Just like if one were to say I chose God who gets credit for salvation?

I believe I said that God is the ultimate cause of all things, but He is not the direct cause of all things. For example, God is the ultimate cause for me typing this response, however, I am the direct cause, or author of this response, I am the one typing the words and what not. I am also responsible for this response, whether the response is true or it is in error because I must give an account of this to God. That is, I must answer to Him for it.

In the same way when a vessel does the shooting who is the criminal?

Obviously the vessel, they are the criminal and they are responsible for their crime. They had evil intents and they carried out on those evil intents. God was not the one doing the shooting, the criminal was the one doing the shooting. The criminal must also give an account to God for his actions, thus he is responsible to God for what he does or does not do.

orthedoxy · May 16, 2007

Beoga said:
I believe I said that God is the ultimate cause of all things, but He is not the direct cause of all things. For example, God is the ultimate cause for me typing this response, however, I am the direct cause, or author of this response, I am the one typing the words and what not. I am also responsible for this response, whether the response is true or it is in error because I must give an account of this to God. That is, I must answer to Him for it.

Obviously the vessel, they are the criminal and they are responsible for their crime. They had evil intents and they carried out on those evil intents. God was not the one doing the shooting, the criminal was the one doing the shooting. The criminal must also give an account to God for his actions, thus he is responsible to God for what he does or does not do.

Why do you say God is the one that saved you when it was you that came to him?
why don't you give God the credit in the shooting?The person that did the shooting couldn't resist God's will.

orthedoxy · May 16, 2007

Godselect
Seems like you are saying it was God that killed those people. You call your God loving and the shooter evil?

cygnusx1 · May 16, 2007

orthedoxy said:
Why do you say God is the one that saved you when it was you that came to him?

because it's foolish to grant praise to an instrumental cause , and ignore the primary cause.

why don't you give God the credit in the shooting?

credit ? is there credit to be given ? I would have thought blame would be more appropriate , yes the sinner is to blame , God is NOT!

The person that did the shooting couldn't resist God's will.

which will are you on about ?? , the Will of Command *Thou Shall NOT Kill * was certainly resisted!

orthedoxy · May 16, 2007

because it's foolish to grant praise to an instrumental cause , and ignore the primary cause.

[/quote]
Is God the primary cause of the shooting?

credit ? is there credit to be given ? I would have thought blame would be more appropriate , yes the sinner is to blame , God is NOT!

Did God cause the shooting?

which will are you on about ?? , the Will of Command *Thou Shall NOT Kill * was certainly resisted!

Was it God's will the shooting would happen? Could the shooter do other then was he was ordained to do?

cygnusx1 · May 16, 2007

orthedoxy said:
because it's foolish to grant praise to an instrumental cause , and ignore the primary cause.

Is God the primary cause of the shooting?

God is the ultimate cause of all things Romans 11

Did God cause the shooting?

certainly , Amos 3:6

Was it God's will the shooting would happen?

All things work according to God's will . Eph 1:11

Could the shooter do other then was he was ordained to do?

No , and the ordination is secret. As far as a criminal is concerned , the way is open to do either the crime or forgo it. eg , Judas couldn't know for sure he was ordained to betray Christ , his choice was intact !

GodsElect · May 16, 2007

orthedoxy said:
Godselect
Seems like you are saying it was God that killed those people. You call your God loving and the shooter evil?

The Glory of God in the Problem of Evil

Atheists (and some "christians" alike) often argue against God's existence from the problem of evil. Their argument goes as follows: If God is all loving, He would have prevented evil from entering the universe; if God is all powerful, He could have prevented evil; evil exists, therefore there is no such God.

On the contrary, I will argue as follows: If God is all loving, He would allow evil to enter the universe; If God is all powerful, He could allow evil without being guilty of evil Himself, and He could make evil work for the greatest good; therefore we have great reason to praise the God who exists!

Clarifying the issue
There are two errors that must be avoided concerning the problem of evil. The first error would be to believe that God is the source of evil. This terrible error would blame God for evil and hold that evil was produced by God out of His own nature. The second error would be to believe that evil occurred apart from God's sovereign plan. This position would hold that evil entered the universe because God was helpless to prevent it, and thus it overthrew the purposes of God. The position the Scriptures seem to teach is that mankind is to be blamed for and is the source of evil, while nonetheless the entrance of evil into the universe was ordained by God as part of God's plan from the beginning. God could have prevented evil from entering into the universe had He desired to, but chose not to prevent it for wise and holy reasons.

Let's probe this issue a little further. God is not the author of evil because He created the universe good. In its original state, there was nothing evil or sinful in the universe. Evil first entered God's creation as a result of the disobedience of the angels who rebelled. Evil then entered the physical universe and human race as a result of mankind's sin in Adam. God is not the source of evil or sin; evil is a result of the disobedience of God's creatures. For these reasons, God cannot be blamed for the existence of evil--all responsibility for the presence of sin and evil in the human race falls upon mankind. All responsibility for the presence of evil in the spiritual realm falls upon the angels who rebelled.

But in order to have the full picture, we cannot stop here and conclude that God was powerless to prevent evil. Since God is sovereign and He "works out everything in conformity with the counsel of His will" (Ephesians 1:11), none of His purposes can be thwarted (Job 42:2). Therefore we must conclude that evil did not occur apart from the purpose and plan of God. The ultimate reason that evil occurred is because God planned it, not because His creatures are able to overthrow His plans. These two truths we must hold together even if we cannot fully understand how they fit: man is responsible, yet God is absolutely sovereign and controls all things.

Last of all it is necessary to understand that evil is not permanent. It was defeated at the cross and will be quarantined in hell for eternity at the final judgement. Then God will create a new heavens and new earth where only righteousness and purity will dwell forever.

A loving God would allow evil
We are now in a position to ask the question, Why did God willingly choose to allow evil into the universe? How is this consistent with His love? Without claiming to exhaust the mystery here, I offer this answer: God allowed evil because the temporary presence of evil in the universe would result in the greatest glory to His name. And since God's glory is what most benefits His people, it is loving for God to seek His glory to the highest extent in all that He does. Therefore it is loving for God to allow the temporary presence of evil in the universe. Let's examine these points more closely.

Those whom God has chosen for mercy He loves to the fullest possible extent (John 13:1). Thus, God seeks to fully reveal the greatness of His glory upon them. The glory of God is the shining forth of the splendor and greatness and infinite value of His perfect character. When God glorifies Himself, He is not making Himself more glorious (that is impossible), but calling attention to and displaying His infinite greatness. How does evil seem to fit into God's plan to glorify Himself? Part of the answer seems to be this: many of God's attributes can be more clearly and brightly displayed to us if there is sin and therefore evil in the universe.

Mercy revealed
For example, God's mercy is His goodness and help shown to those who are in a miserable plight. But God could not show mercy if there was no sin and evil in the universe, because then there would be no one in a miserable plight to need mercy.

Mercy highlighted
In addition, the greatness of God's mercy is highlighted by the fact that those whom God chooses for His saving mercy are saved out from the most awful and terrifying situation possible--being under the almighty wrath of God. Dr. Daniel Fuller asks us this question: "How could God's mercy appear fully as his great mercy unless it was extended to people who were under his wrath and therefore could only ask for mercy?"[1] God's mercy is magnified by delivering us from under His wrath.

Mercy eternally magnified by being set in contrast to wrath
Furthermore, "It would be impossible for them to share with God the delight He has in his mercy unless they saw clearly the awfulness of the almighty wrath from which his mercy delivers them."[2] Therefore, God prepares not only vessels of mercy, but also vessels of wrath so that the vessels of mercy can fully see and understand the awfulness of the wrath they have been rescued from. For all eternity, God's mercy will be placed against the backdrop of His wrath in order to fully magnify and display the greatness of His mercy. Through this those who are chosen for mercy can fully share with God the delight He has in His mercy and fully praise Him for what He has done for them.

God's justice, wrath, power, and holiness more fully displayed
So we see that in the just punishment of sinners, God's mercy is fully highlighted to those whom He chooses to save. The punishment of sinners (which could not have happened if God had not allowed evil) is also an occasion for God to glorify Himself through the vindication of His justice, demonstration of His wrath, display of His power, and purity of His holiness which will not tolerate sin. This also works to reveal the riches of God's glory to the vessels of mercy: "What if God, in order to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory..." (Romans 9:22, 23, RSV. cf. Proverbs 16:4, "The Lord has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil").

God's wrath and holiness are related. The wrath of God is the righteous assertion of His holiness against sin. If we could not see that God is so holy that He hates sin and thus reacts against it with His wrath, we would not know as fully the purity and zeal of God's holiness. For only in contrast to sin (and thus His holiness reacting against this sin as wrath to vindicate His righteousness) is the purity of God's holiness most intensely highlighted. If there were no sin upon which God could pour His wrath eternally, He could not assert the full range of His holiness because He could not show that, in His holiness, He hates and despises all that is unholy.

Hell makes the infinite value of God's glory crystal clear
God's judging of sin and reacting in wrath to punish it eternally in hell demonstrates the infinite value of His perfections. Why? Because the infinite penalty of attacking God's glory--eternal punishment in hell--reveals the infinite value of the glory that was attacked. Thus, hell is ultimately an eternal display of the infinite value of God's glory. While this certainly does not mean that God delights in the sinner's suffering in and of itself, He does delight in it in the sense that it is a vindication of His righteousness and display of His power. This is how Ezekiel 33:11 ("I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked") fits with Deuteronomy 28:63 (where God tells Israel that if they disobey He "will delight over you to make you perish and destroy you; and you shall be torn from the land where you are entering to possess it").

A loving and righteous God would most magnify His worth
Having seen that God's decision to allow sin was for the purpose of fully displaying the greatness of His perfections to an extent that He could not otherwise have done, we are led to look at the next question in greater detail: Why must God display the full range of His character?

This is because doing so most magnifies His worth. If God did not display, for example, His mercy, then He would not be fully magnifying His character because there would be some of His character that is not expressed. And if God did not magnify His character to the fullest possible extent, God would not be acting in perfect righteousness. Why is this? It is because God is the most precious, valuable being in the universe. Therefore, He must delight in and value Himself above anything else. From this it follows that if God did not seek to display His honor and perfections above all else, He would not be placing infinite worth on what is infinitely valuable. He would be putting something before Himself, which would mean putting something less valuable before the more valuable, which would be unrighteous.

Why it is loving for God to magnify His worth
In fully displaying His glory (which, we have seen, requires sin), God is being most loving. Why? First, if He did not do this, we would not know Him "fully, just as I also have been fully known" (1 Cor. 13). Put simply, we wouldn't know God as well if He did not display who He is to the fullest possible extent. And it seems that it would be most loving for God let us know as much of Himself as He can.

Also, it is truly loving of God to seek His praise to the highest possible extent (which, as we have seen, would require the brilliance of His mercy highlighted by demonstrating His wrath). Why is this? In our lives, there is a pattern that we see: We tend to praise what we prize. Enjoyment of something overflows into praise. Go to a great movie sometime, and when you leave the theater, what are you usually talking with your friends about? How great the movie is! You are praising it. It also seems as if our enjoyment of something is not complete unless we are able to praise it. If your friends said, "Be quiet, I don't want to hear about it," your enjoyment of the movie would not be complete. So praise is necessary for full, complete enjoyment.

If God did not seek His praise from us then our enjoyment of Him would not be made full -- it would be incomplete since it wouldn't overflow into praise. The way for God to win the most praise from us is to fully display His character. So if God wants us to fully enjoy Him and prize Him, He must seek His own praise through us so that our enjoyment of Him will overflow into praise and complete our joy. John Piper summarizes these truths well: "God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him." So even in our enjoyment (and resulting praise) God is glorified. Thus, God seeking our good and God seeking His praise are really one and the same pursuit, since our good/joy yields praise to His name.

The sovereign freedom of God
Further, in order for us to truly value God's great mercy and gift of eternal life, it is good for Him to highlight the unconditional freedom He has in bestowing mercy. His unconditional freedom makes it absolutely clear that He owes mercy to no one. If everyone got saved, He could not show His unconditional freedom in showing mercy and it might seem as if we were entitled to salvation. If you think you are entitled to something, it is hard to see it as a free, undeserved gift. And it is hard to be grateful and thankful for it if you think it is owed to you. God's freedom in mercy rebukes our sense of entitlement and thus evokes gratitude.

Exodus 33 declares the sovereign freedom of God in showing mercy. In this chapter, Moses asks to see God's glory. God says (among other things) that He will show His glory and that "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy." This is a Hebrew expression called idem per idem which stresses the absolute freedom of the agent in doing the action--He can do it however He wants, constrained by nothing outside of himself.[3] Thus, God is saying that one aspect of His glory is absolute freedom to grant mercy constrained by no reason that is outside of His own will. He will give mercy in whatever way He wants. Then God says that He will pass by Moses and proclaim His "name." To the Hebrews, one's name was who they were. It was your very identity. When God proclaimed His name, He said that He was "abounding in lovingkindness and mercy." So one aspect of God's character, His glory, is that He is merciful. But this also draws us back to 33:19--where it says that God is absolutely free in His bestowal of this mercy. Thus, it is God's glory and essence to be absolutely free in His giving us mercy by not being constrained by anything outside of His own will. His will alone determines who gets mercy, and therefore His mercy is unconditional.

If God gave mercy to all, it seems that He would not be displaying that His essence is to be absolutely free in giving mercy. And as we've said, God's freedom in giving mercy rebukes our entitlement and evokes gratitude, thus causing us to value heaven as a true gift of grace. Lastly, as we saw earlier, in order for there to be mercy, there must be people in a miserable plight to need it, which requires sin.

...continued...

GodsElect · May 16, 2007

Conclusion
Thus, we have seen how God's love and goodness would cause Him to allow evil into the universe, for in due time this will lead to truly the best of all possible worlds where God's attributes are most displayed, God is most glorified, and eternity is truly valued. Perhaps some may be troubled by the fact that even evil, in the long range, results in glory to God. It may be troubling to think that such a terrible thing as evil was permitted by God for His glory. But look at the other option--that evil ultimately worked to defeat the glory of God. Wouldn't evil truly have the upper hand if God was unable to overrule it for His greatest glory and His people's greatest good?

I really hope you can grasp what the author is saying. If not, just go find a "debate a Calvinist" forum eleswhere because that's all the answer, from God's word, that, being a Calvinist, can give you.

Beoga · May 17, 2007

orthedoxy said:
Why do you say God is the one that saved you when it was you that came to him?

God ordained my salvation from before the foundations were laid, Christ live a perfect obedient life, died and rose again from the dead, God drew me to himself, God granted me faith and repentance, God even gave me the desire to come to him, my good works were also ordained before the foundation of the world that I should walk in them, etc.

why don't you give God the credit in the shooting?The person that did the shooting couldn't resist God's will.

Correct, the person could not have resisted the will of God. Yet they chose to engage in the shooting and carried out on that decision. They are responsible, they are the one to get "credit" (or has been mentioned, a better word would be "blame").
God however is and will be glorified in this event.

TigerBunny · May 17, 2007

Boxmaker said:
Thats disturbing. God only loves the elect and turely hates the rest. Not a passave hate, mind you, but God activly hates them.

God loves His Son.

orthedoxy · May 17, 2007

Beoga said:
God ordained my salvation from before the foundations were laid, Christ live a perfect obedient life, died and rose again from the dead, God drew me to himself, God granted me faith and repentance, God even gave me the desire to come to him, my good works were also ordained before the foundation of the world that I should walk in them, etc.

Correct, the person could not have resisted the will of God. Yet they chose to engage in the shooting and carried out on that decision. They are responsible, they are the one to get "credit" (or has been mentioned, a better word would be "blame").
God however is and will be glorified in this event.

One can't choose unless they could do otherwise. If this person was ordained to kill he didn't choose to do so. A robot can't choose and neither could one that is ordained to kill. You don't blame your computer screen for the writing, you blame the person that is writing the words. The same way you can't blame the person that was basically programmed to kill.
You guys say God causes evil then that would make God evil.
God does not cause evil. He punishes people but that is not the same as causing evil. Sending one to prison is not evil. God cant change mans will irresistibly, if he did he would make everyone believe and accept because he is all loving.
God created free choice in doing so evil came to be.

heymikey80 · May 17, 2007

orthedoxy said:
One can't choose unless they could do otherwise. If this person was ordained to kill he didn't choose to do so. A robot can't choose and neither could one that is ordained to kill. You don't blame your computer screen for the writing, you blame the person that is writing the words. The same way you can't blame the person that was basically programmed to kill.

Your decision to write those words is in the past. The past can't be decided on. Should we then conclude that everything in the past was performed by robots?

You can also generate randomness for a computer. It's really not that hard to do.

I would invite you to consider what would've happened had God decided say to smite the shooter before he pulled the trigger. It's pretty much the same. God had the freedom to prevent this crime. Correct? He had the power to prevent the crime. Correct? Exactly how does your assertion that He didn't cause the crime (though He's declared He's the cause of everything that exists) absolve Him?

Really, it doesn't. There must be a different explanation beyond causality that explains evil.

And it's fairly obvious once you set that issue aside and start looking for the other explanation.

It's intent. Ethics is all about intent.

orthedoxy said:
You guys say God causes evil then that would make God evil.

Wrong. We say God's the cause of evil in a way that He is not thereby evil.

You say the same thing. You just inject the term "freedom" to justify God. For you God ordained freedom, and freedom made evil. You have the equivalent problem. God, being good, made something that made evil.

Does evil exist?

Did God say He made everything that exists or not?

Can God prevent evil? Under what cases is it ethical to continue to permit evil to happen? Which case is the case when it comes to God?

orthedoxy said:
God does not cause evil. He punishes people but that is not the same as causing evil. Sending one to prison is not evil. God cant change mans will irresistibly, if he did he would make everyone believe and accept because he is all loving.
God created free choice in doing so evil came to be.

Evil "came to be"? You think God didn't know this would happen? And indeed God must've intended it to happen if He knew it would, and He indeed created freedom the way it is.

Therefore in your view God created evil. He created the conditions under which evil would come to exist, and He knew it would occur, and He nevertheless created the conditions.

Is God good?

If He is, then you've essentially got the same problem.

God has the power to create a world with no Fall. Yet He didn't.

cygnusx1 · May 17, 2007

orthedoxy said:
One can't choose unless they could do otherwise.

It is impossible that God can sin are we to say God is not free then...... of course God is free and God chooses to declare war on sin because it is opposed to His very nature.

If this person was ordained to kill he didn't choose to do so. A robot can't choose and neither could one that is ordained to kill.

a person can choose to kill , but that choice is always under the knowledge and will of God. Even Satan , who has often been the instigator of many evils needs permission of God , you have read Job.

You don't blame your computer screen for the writing, you blame the person that is writing the words. The same way you can't blame the person that was basically programmed to kill.

Judas was culpable for his sin and it was written many years before Judas was born that Christ would be betrayed for 30 pieces of silver.

You guys say God causes evil then that would make God evil.

Not at all!!!

God does not cause evil.

scripture disagrees with you!

He punishes people but that is not the same as causing evil. Sending one to prison is not evil. God can’t change mans will irresistibly, if he did he would make everyone believe and accept because he is all loving.
God created free choice in doing so evil came to be.

no , none of these ideas are in scripture , sadly they are human sentiments lacking in Divine authority.

orthedoxy · May 17, 2007

heymikey80 said:
Your decision to write those words is in the past. The past can't be decided on. Should we then conclude that everything in the past was performed by robots?

You can also generate randomness for a computer. It's really not that hard to do.

I would invite you to consider what would've happened had God decided say to smite the shooter before he pulled the trigger. It's pretty much the same. God had the freedom to prevent this crime. Correct? He had the power to prevent the crime. Correct? Exactly how does your assertion that He didn't cause the crime (though He's declared He's the cause of everything that exists) absolve Him?

Really, it doesn't. There must be a different explanation beyond causality that explains evil.

And it's fairly obvious once you set that issue aside and start looking for the other explanation.

It's intent. Ethics is all about intent.

Its more then foreknowledge but you say he caused it to happen therefore its not like the past but more like programming a robot to do an event.
God created people with choice he cant force someone to love and obey him. He does send people that murder to jail and give them the death sentence. Your question on why doesnt he smite him before he shot the people doesnt make sense if he did then he would have smite a person that didnt shoot other people. He also uses people to accomplish his will and people cant know the future.

Wrong. We say God's the cause of evil in a way that He is not thereby evil.

That statement doesnt make sense. If God is the cause of an evil act then he is evil.

You say the same thing. You just inject the term "freedom" to justify God. For you God ordained freedom, and freedom made evil. You have the equivalent problem. God, being good, made something that made evil.

Does evil exist?

People didnt have to make evil. This guy wasnt forced to shoot. He had a choice not to shoot. God reaches out to these people so that they would repent but this guy rejected God.

Did God say He made everything that exists or not?

Can God prevent evil? Under what cases is it ethical to continue to permit evil to happen? Which case is the case when it comes to God?

Evil "came to be"? You think God didn't know this would happen? And indeed God must've intended it to happen if He knew it would, and He indeed created freedom the way it is.

Therefore in your view God created evil. He created the conditions under which evil would come to exist, and He knew it would occur, and He nevertheless created the conditions.

Is God good?

If He is, then you've essentially got the same problem.

God has the power to create a world with no Fall. Yet He didn't.

He made man with free choice if you think God is capable of creating people with free choices then how can you say he is the one that creates child molestation? How can you say he created our evil actions? God only creates the good things. Love is from God, choosing to believe is from God but they are not forced upon us. He is the first cause of good actions only.
God didnt create Adam to fall he could have not fell but he chose to fall. If Adam wasnt created with choice and he was created to fall. He would not be able to show love toward God. We would be like robots which we are not.
Does the bible say love is from God? if so then that would mean there are somethings that are not from God.

orthedoxy · May 17, 2007

Judas was not ordained to commit the sin Jesus was simply telling the future.

These things are from scripture Read act 7:51 “You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
You see people can resist God.

edie19 · May 17, 2007

There isn't a person here who would say that God is the author of sin - they would say just the opposite. He is, however, sovereign over the entire universe - humans and angels (including Satan), nations, free acts and sinful acts. This is the God who spoke the universe into being with a word and yet is so aware of His universe that He knows when a sparrow falls to the ground. Sorry to say this, but to assume less than sovereignty over all is absurd and certainly not supported by Scirpture. (Psalm 103:19-21, Matthew 5:45, Job 1:12, Psalm 47:7-9, Galatians 1:15-16)

1. God never commits sin.
2. God is not the positive cause of sin.
3. God cannot be blamed for sin.
4. God does not approve of sin. He hates it and justly punishes it.
5. God does not ordain sin for its own sake.

God ordained from the beginning Christ's sacrifice on the cross. This single act is the single greatest sin in history - and God planned it all. This was what Christ came for! Again, God who planned and ordained this can certainly ordain the act of an evil student on a college campus. (Ephesians 1:11, Acts 2:23, John 17, Acts 4:27-28)

As far as the free choice is concerned - yes, mankind has the ability to choose. However, until God turns man's heart towards Him, man will always choose sin! No one chooses God!! Salvation is 100% God and 0% man. (Romans 3:9-11, Ephesians 2:7-9)

Beoga · May 17, 2007

orthedoxy said:
One can't choose unless they could do otherwise.

To quote someone else:
"Alternatives are entirely unnecessary for the faculty of choice. All that is required is volition. If you willingly do something, you have chosen to do it, regardless of whether or not you would have done otherwise given other options. It's difficult for us to understand because we think of choice as choosing among alternatives. This is mostly because humans are largely without the power to force another to choose something. Sometimes this can be had under coercion, but even then we tend to say we were "forced into it" rather than "we chose it."

Clark gets it very well when he calls it a "mental act" that "initiates and determines a further action." I would further expand it to include "inaction" as well. That makes the definition more complete. Here is an example.

If you choose to jump, but do not, have you chosen to do so? Or have you chosen to _not_ jump?"

Also, Gordon Clark defines choice as:
"Choice then may be defined, at least sufficiently for the present purpose, as a mental act that consciously initiates and determines a further action. The ability to have chosen otherwise is an irrelevant matter."

If this person was ordained to kill he didn't choose to do so. A robot can't choose and neither could one that is ordained to kill.

The person doing the shooting willing engages in the action. It is the intent of their heart to murder. Again, as I have said before, they are responsible for their action because they must give an account to God for what they did, regardless of whether or not God ordained the action (which He did).

You don't blame your computer screen for the writing, you blame the person that is writing the words. The same way you can't blame the person that was basically programmed to kill.

Peter puts the blame on the Jews for the murder of Christ even though Christ's murder was ordained before the foundation of the world (Acts 2).

You guys say God causes evil then that would make God evil.

God caused the murder of Christ (Acts 2) and God works all things after the counsel of His own will (Ephesians 1:11), yet the Scriptures still declare God to be good.

God does not cause evil. He punishes people but that is not the same as causing evil.

Of course punishing evil and causing evil are two different things. No one is saying otherwise.

Sending one to prison is not evil. God cant change mans will irresistibly, if he did he would make everyone believe and accept because he is all loving.

The Scriptures are clear (Romans 9), God could save all, but He has chosen to make objects of wrath fit for destruction.
God does not change man's will irresistibly, no Calvinist (should) claims so.

God created free choice in doing so evil came to be.

What happens in Heaven when I am sure you believe this free will remains? Wil there be the possibility to sin in Heaven?

bradfordl · May 17, 2007

He made man with free choice if you think God is capable of creating people with free choices then how can you say he is the one that creates child molestation? How can you say he created our evil actions? God only creates the good things. Love is from God, choosing to believe is from God but they are not forced upon us. He is the first cause of good actions only.

Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Like most will-worshippers and those who anthropomorphize almighty God, you presume a far greater importance for humanity than is called for. We are a part of a grand creation whose supreme and over-arching purpose is to glorify every charateristic of God. He has ordained that a multitude of gross and egregious sins be willfully committed by fallen, wicked humanity throughout history to show forth both His justice in indignation against sin, and the amazing depth of His mercy towards those He has reserved for Himself as a people upon whom He has shed His love. The quantity and severity of the wickedness of man is mind-boggling, because it must be so to demonstrate its vileness, God's rightness in its judgement and destruction, and the incredible cost of the sacrifice He made of His own Son upon the cross. He wrote, cast, scripted and directs the whole movie from beginning to end, but the actors never see the script; they are created such that they "ad lib" their parts from their own natures, and yet never wander from their lines. By that they are held responsible - they "choose" to do the things they do.

The whole purpose is God's glory, not to do anything for you or anyone else as though anyone deserved anything but destruction from His hand.

That you can't comprehend that is immaterial... you are dust, He is God. That you detest the whole idea is only an indication of supreme arrogance; that a speck of dust would demand anything, expect anything, of God, and that a speck of dust would confer upon its Creator the limitations of time and understanding by which it is constrained to operate within is a hilarious delusion of grandeur.

UMP · May 18, 2007

bradfordl said:
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Like most will-worshippers and those who anthropomorphize almighty God, you presume a far greater importance for humanity than is called for. We are a part of a grand creation whose supreme and over-arching purpose is to glorify every charateristic of God. He has ordained that a multitude of gross and egregious sins be willfully committed by fallen, wicked humanity throughout history to show forth both His justice in indignation against sin, and the amazing depth of His mercy towards those He has reserved for Himself as a people upon whom He has shed His love. The quantity and severity of the wickedness of man is mind-boggling, because it must be so to demonstrate its vileness, God's rightness in its judgement and destruction, and the incredible cost of the sacrifice He made of His own Son upon the cross. He wrote, cast, scripted and directs the whole movie from beginning to end, but the actors never see the script; they are created such that they "ad lib" their parts from their own natures, and yet never wander from their lines. By that they are held responsible - they "choose" to do the things they do.

The whole purpose is God's glory, not to do anything for you or anyone else as though anyone deserved anything but destruction from His hand.

That you can't comprehend that is immaterial... you are dust, He is God. That you detest the whole idea is only an indication of supreme arrogance; that a speck of dust would demand anything, expect anything, of God, and that a speck of dust would confer upon its Creator the limitations of time and understanding by which it is constrained to operate within is a hilarious delusion of grandeur.

AMEN !
Are you A.W. Pink's grandson !?

heymikey80 · May 18, 2007

orthedoxy said:
It’s more then foreknowledge but you say he caused it to happen therefore it’s not like the past but more like programming a robot to do an event.

Excuse me? God said God caused it to happen. Evil exists. There is nothing that exists that God did not make.

Creation is more than physical. It is also spiritual.

orthedoxy said:
God created people with choice he can’t force someone to love and obey him.

It is entirely clear that He could. The sole question is what the nature of "force" is.

If it's overriding our natures in opposition to the evil that we do -- God both says in His own word demonstrates He can and does that, but that He doesn't always do that.
If "force" is creating anew in our hearts -- God both says in His own word demonstrates He can and does that, but that He doesn't always do that.
If "force" means God makes things happen around us that increase the good in the lives of those He called, and that the doom and destruction of those He ordained to condemnation is also certainly awaiting that -- God both says in His own word He does and promises that.
If "force" means He grabs our limited freedom in this day & age and compels us to do something against our wills choosing -- neither of our views says that.

orthedoxy said:
He does send people that murder to jail and give them the death sentence. Your question on why doesn’t he smite him before he shot the people doesn’t make sense if he did then he would have smite a person that didn’t shoot other people.

What, you don't trust God's foreknowledge? And you don't believe God has ever done this before? How about the Israeli victory over Assyria?

orthedoxy said:
He also uses people to accomplish his will and people can’t know the future.

Yeah. He does. So what?

orthedoxy said:
That statement doesn’t make sense. If God is the cause of an evil act then he is evil.

Then in your view, God caused freedom. Freedom caused the evil act. God is thus the cause of the evil act. Therefore your view suffers the exact same problem.

orthedoxy said:
People didn’t have to make evil. This guy wasn’t forced to shoot. He had a choice not to shoot. God reaches out to these people so that they would repent but this guy rejected God.

Excuse me, what? So God's simply creating evil doesn't make Him evil! Evil is not forced to shoot! Evil has a choice not to shoot! Evil simply rejects God!

orthedoxy said:
He made man with free choice if you think God is capable of creating people with free choices then how can you say he is the one that creates child molestation?

Does child molestation exist?

orthedoxy said:
How can you say he created our evil actions? God only creates the good things. Love is from God, choosing to believe is from God but they are not forced upon us. He is the first cause of good actions only.

How can you say God is stating a falsehood?

orthedoxy said:
God didn’t create Adam to fall he could have not fell but he chose to fall. If Adam wasn’t created with choice and he was created to fall. He would not be able to show love toward God. We would be like robots which we are not.
Does the bible say love is from God? if so then that would mean there are somethings that are not from God.

Do you see the basic dilemma in your view? Nobody's saying God didn't ordain liberty. God preserves choice in the midst of determinism. But human choice is based on the inevitable direction of the human heart. God makes hearts. They're not some independent deity after God makes them. He has placed them in His creation. He moves among them to convert them from stone to flesh. He will judge them, condemning them and vindicating them at the Last Day.

You vault to "robots" to attack the view. Well then what is it about robots that alienates you? Is it that they will automatically choose? But actually they make plenty of refined choices -- neural network programs actually also make such choices, in the midst of determinism. Is it that they have no soul? Well, you haven't explained how having a soul is inconsistent with determinism. Is it that you can control what a robot's thinking, but it's wrong to control what a human's thinking? God has said He will judge our hearts. Is it that they have no spirit? Yet that would say the choice of the spiritually dead is indeed fatalistic, and rebirth is true freedom! So your view is collapsing into more rhetoric at that point. And for the record over fifty years ago Gordon Clark explained the nature of this kind of argument against predestination. It doesn't hold.

Finally, if you want a debate of the propaganda you hold to, this is not the place.

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