Virginia school board votes to restore Confederate names to two schools

Chesterton said:

Your moral judgment is irrelevant to the idea expressed in the document.

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The confederates have their own documents that make their moral depravity clear.

FireDragon76 said:

People move forward because they choose to move forward.

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Winner! Too many young people keep looking back.

I grew up when racism was real and my father grew up when it was really bad. I grew up with blacks and Mexicans, one of my black friends was called Tracey lips and mine was chink. I wonder where the lips came from in that nickname. Interracial marriage was taboo and today I have a teenage black Grandaughter. I think the ignorant kids today worried about a flag or monument should be asking their racist father and grandfather (if you are lucky) why they kept racist policies till Martin Luther King, 100 years after the Civil War. Rob kept pushing the Cornerstone speech, the VP said it but many believed it till the 1960s.


Does anyone remember "The Dukes of Hazard" that show was watched by blacks and whites alike and aired for 5 or 6 years. The boomers saw healing and millions of Americans watched that show not looking for race, not like today. As Morgan Freeman mentioned to Lemon, "if you look for racism it will always be there" Freeman also said about inequality "Bull s, look at me and you" and kids have to go back 160 years to virtue signal. I think the same as him an old boomer and Morgan probably grew up in segregation.

I was too young to notice segregation and learned about it in school and on TV and I was shocked. My first experience with the race card was in the Army. I jumped the black private for half-stepping he was lazy. He reported me to the section chief and I was called into office but nothing happened because he knew the other NCOs I hung out with. There were also racist whites and blacks in the Army who had their little clicks.

The second experience I had was with my granddaughter's dad. The dude wouldn't hold a job and my daughter said it was because he was black. I said no he's lazy. After 1.5 years she left him and married a Cajun black. (no child support to this day).

The third came from the media after we elected our first black president. Imagine that! When the media started calling Republicans racist because we didn't agree with some of Obama's policies. Trying to put a guilt complex on Republicans. I believe the race-baiting has been used since then.

My granddaughter was concerned about racism when she heard on her phone (5th Generation Warfare) and I asked her, would I be your grandfather if it was as bad as they say? It was like a light bulb went off in her head. I told her to be careful what she believes in the media.

What you kids need to be worried about today is the slavery that corporations have put you in. Right now people are getting laid off or taking pay cuts just to keep a job.

RocksInMyHead said:

Traitors to Britain, yes. Had they lost, they would not have been honored by the British.

As others have said, that's business as usual for secessionists around the world. There is no legal method for a territory to unilaterally leave (or join) the United States, and I think that's true of most countries.

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Might makes right.
That's the real moral high ground
on the statues.

Hans Blaster said:

The confederates have their own documents that make their moral depravity clear.

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See usa treaties with the native americans

FireDragon76 said:

It started as a voluntary assosciation or covenant (with no provision made for leaving the agreement), but over time developed into a republic with more centralized government. The US Civil War marked the transition, with the issue of slavery being the material cause.

US empire didn't start until the late 19th century, with the invasion of the Philipines and Cuba by the US.

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Nah. Neither was ever incorporated into empire.
Freeing them from Spain wasn't empire building for all
that motives were not pure,

The empire, as with Russia, is conquered adjacent territory.

Whatever else was going on, resisting a project that was based on legitimizing slavery was the right thing.

Estrid said:

Might makes right.
That's the real moral high ground
on the statues.

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It's not really a moral question, as far as I'm concerned. Treason is an amoral concept - it concerns loyalty to the state, which is not something that is consistently morally right or wrong. There are times when it might be morally right to commit treason (see the attempted coup against the Nazis mentioned previously in this thread). There are times when it might be morally wrong to do so (see the Confederacy and its reasons for secession). Either way, if you lose, you should not expect to be honored for it.

RocksInMyHead said:

You mean like by honoring a bunch of traitors?

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If Lincoln forgave them I can to my brother.

Estrid said:

See usa treaties with the native americans

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You are really all over the places with irrelevancies. Confederate generals are the topic not all possible bad people.

Hans Blaster said:

You are really all over the places with irrelevancies. Confederate generals are the topic not all possible bad people.

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If we are going to worry about what our ancestors did 160 years ago why not go back another 100 years to what we did to the Indians? Let's talk about Indians let's give them blankets with smallpox, let's talk about genocide. I think most in the world realize that their ancestors were barbaric.

Laodicean60 said:

If we are going to worry about what our ancestors did 160 years ago why not go back another 100 years to what we did to the Indians? Let's talk about Indians let's give them blankets with smallpox, let's talk about genocide. I think most in the world realize that their ancestors were barbaric.

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Yep, clearly reservation schools and public buildings need to be named after Andrew Jackson.

Hans Blaster said:

You are really all over the places with irrelevancies. Confederate generals are the topic not all possible bad people.

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Rats. It's not working.

Laodicean60 said:

If we are going to worry about what our ancestors did 160 years ago why not go back another 100 years to what we did to the Indians? Let's talk about Indians let's give them blankets with smallpox, let's talk about genocide. I think most in the world realize that their ancestors were barbaric.

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We are talking about specific individuals whose records are known (Jackson & Lee). Similar arguments have been made about specific individuals regarding native peoples, including "Lord Jeff" Amherst. It might be hard to get the town and the college to rename themselves, but at least Amherst college could stop using the "Lord Jeff" mascot. (See it's not as if I am giving a free pass to other jerks, they just aren't the topic.)

FireDragon76 said:

I actually had ancestors that fought in the Civil War... in the Confederacy in the western campaigns.

Remembering people like Stonewall Jackson as mythic heroes that need to have their names plastered everywhere is precisely what is keeping this country from moving on.

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Your country has moved on long ago. Your forefathers cared not and had accepted that peace is achieved. US has been unified for a long long time. There is but a minute faction that cling on to romanticized past. That applies to both sides. I have see and read how some people are so proud to be Union that they forgot that slavery is very much still in place in their states after the war.

Remember Lincoln initially only fought to keep the Union from breaking apart. To stop states from leaving the Union more than the fight to end slavery. It wasn't until much later that slavery was added in as casus belli. So this delusion of a noble, honorable and just side fighting for human rights need to stop. People need to read history proper and take lessons from it.

It is the newer generations that like to exhume long dead corpses to retrial them over and over. Juxtapose their morality on what their forefathers had already resolved by their own time. It is only your perception that people are remembering Jackson as some mythical hero as you would put it. People are just glad that their history is remembered and not erased. Which ironically that is what the newer generations like to do.

General Grant and general Lee respected one another very much. Grant granted (pun not intended) a lot of Lee's requests during the surrender. This is the kind of statesmanship that is far lacking in modern Americans. Grant saw the need to normalized relations while not letting wrongs go uncorrected. Modern Americans who are thought to view things only from a certain way understood the punishment part but not the reconciliation part. That why they view things as unresolved where their forefathers had already done so.

People who actually experienced the war can come to terms with it while their children are so indignant about it. And ironically many of those who view a one sided history have no direct link to the events. Many immigrants came after the American civil war and their entire family lines have nothing to do with old "grievances".

Laodicean60 said:

If Lincoln forgave them I can to my brother.

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Forgiveness does not require honoring and memorializing them.

RocksInMyHead said:

Forgiveness does not require honoring and memorializing them.

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Then it can also be said that it is not your right to forgive or not forgive. That right has always been with those who experienced it. Like I have no right to say I don't forgive Afonso de Albuquerque for conquering Malacca in 1511. Firstly my first Chinese forefather hasn't landed in the Malay Peninsular and secondly Malaysia today has move forward. We even kept some relics from the Portuguese like the A Famosa in present day Malacca. In fact we are proud to have it around and we maintain it well.

RocksInMyHead said:

Forgiveness does not require honoring and memorializing them.

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Especially people that fought for unjust causes.

RocksInMyHead said:

Forgiveness does not require honoring and memorializing them.

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But it happened, statues were built. Why not destroy everything from our horrid past all the way to Columbus, so today's kids can make themselves feel better about themselves?

If you want to go back to the past try the more recent past. "You ain't Black if you vote for Trump". Outrage? I see a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to race issues.

Laodicean60 said:

If you want to go back to the past try the more recent past. "You ain't Black if you vote for Trump". Outrage? I see a bunch of hypocrites when it comes to race issues.

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Were buildings named with that quote? Statues erected to its honor and remembrance? Those who thought that a bad idea said to be erasing history?