Virgin Birth

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Lotar said:
Well, I guess that you still have a little Catholic left in you

Well, I think it makes sense. Nothing in the Bible says that everyone has an equal place in heaven, in fact, it says we will be rewarded according to our works. Salvation is independent of works, but rewards are dependent on what we did with what He gave us. Mary kept herself pure and was willing to do what God asked, the same way Abraham trusted God with Isaac. I believe that Abraham is greatly honored in heaven, so why not Mary, too? What she did is hardly insignificant. She willingly opened herself up to persecution in order to do the will of God. I bet she's getting rewarded for that.

But I don't think she is any closer to God or has any greater power than say, my mom or grandma, even though they never did anything so significant. She was human, lived, died, sinned like any human, is greatly honored, but is not elevated to any position of power or divinity.

Lotar · Sep 5, 2003

Oblio said:
Protestants don't believe this ?

Nope, at least not that I've heard of. Perhaps someone will correct me.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Lotar said:
Nope, at least not that I've heard of. Perhaps someone will correct me.

Since protestants don't have codified teachings like catholics or orthodox do, it's impossible to say that it is or isn't a protestant belief or teaching.

Benedicta00 · Sep 5, 2003

lambslove said:
I'm willing to go along with that. Christ did not have a fallen nature, but he had the inclination and ability to sin just like we do.

When do we get our fallen nature? At birth, or when we sin for the first time?

We are born in sin, separated from God, Jesus was God, he was not separated from him, sin did not separate him and God.

There are two different sins here, original which is inherited state of sin, not a committed one that we are born with because of what Adam did and then because of the consequence of that sin we are weak and fallen, wounded cratures that are not perfect, and from that we sin personally, we call those actual sins. Jesus did not have any of this.

Jesus did not inherit the fallen nature that was cut off from God; he did not inherit the consequence and penalties for that sin either. He was not depraved, weakened wounded with a darkened intellect and nature. he inherit the nature before Adam sinned and he had free will to choose sin but he did not because he was God, it was impossible for him to sin.

Is this basically what you are trying to say?

Benedicta00 · Sep 5, 2003

Oblio said:
Protestants don't believe this ?

Some do, some don't.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Shelb5 said:
We are born in sin, separated from God, Jesus was God, he was not separated from him, sin did not separate him and God.

There are two different sins here, original which is inherited state of sin, not a committed one that we are born with because of what Adam did and then because of the consequence of that sin we are weak and fallen, wounded cratures that are not perfect, and from that we sin personally, we call those actual sins. Jesus did not have any of this.

Jesus did not inherit the fallen nature that was cut off from God; he did not inherit the consequence and penalties for that sin either. He was not depraved, weakened wounded with a darkened intellect and nature. he inherit the nature before Adam sinned and he had free will to choose sin but he did not because he was God, it was impossible for him to sin.

Is this basically what you are trying to say?

I don't believe in original sin in the sense that we inherit responsibility for Adam's sin. I think we make enough of our own sins that we don't need to inherit his in order to be guilty. So, no, not quite.

Jesus did not inherit original sin, nor did he sin of his own accord.

I didn't inherit original sin, but darn I seem to sin on my own accord mcu more than I wish I did.

Jesus was perfect, not only because he was God, but because he completely resisted every temptation to sin.

I believe that we get separated from God the first time we sin, but we are not born separated from Him by Adam's sin. That's where I differ from catholic beliefs.

Oblio · Sep 5, 2003

Some do, some don't.

Odd, you would think that they would follow the Biblical example of St. Elizabeth and honor the Mother of our God, and to call her blessed throught all generations.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Oblio said:
Odd, you would think that they would follow the Biblical example of St. Elizabeth and honor the Mother of our God, and to call her blessed throught all generations.

Except that St Elizabeth doesn't even show up in our Bible.

Oblio · Sep 5, 2003

I don't believe in original sin in the sense that we inherit responsibility for Adam's sin.

Interesting ! This is the Orthodox view, we do not inherit responsibility or guilt, rather we bear the consequences of Original Sin.

Lotar · Sep 5, 2003

lambslove said:
Except that St Elizabeth doesn't even show up in our Bible.

Yes she is. Just remove the St

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Oblio said:
Interesting ! This is the Orthodox view, we do not inherit responsibility or guilt, rather we bear the consequences of Original Sin.

That's why I keep saying that I am not catholic, protestant, orthodox or any other denomination. I am a Christian. A Bible-believing Christian-at-large.

I agree, we have to live with the consequences of Adam's sin, but that we don't directly bear the blot of his sin.

Benedicta00 · Sep 5, 2003

lambslove said:
I don't believe in original sin in the sense that we inherit responsibility for Adam's sin. I think we make enough of our own sins that we don't need to inherit his in order to be guilty. So, no, not quite.

Jesus did not inherit original sin, nor did he sin of his own accord.

I didn't inherit original sin, but darn I seem to sin on my own accord mcu more than I wish I did.

Jesus was perfect, not only because he was God, but because he completely resisted every temptation to sin.

I believe that we get separated from God the first time we sin, but we are not born separated from Him by Adam's sin. That's where I differ from catholic beliefs.

Well we dont inherit the responsibility because we can do nothing to repair the damage, that is why we have Jesus, he bridges the gap between what Adam did and us.

We just inherit the consequence of his sin and Jesus reconciles us to God but we still have to deal with the effects of his sin and that is a nature prone to sin and one that has been wounded badly.

Jesus inherited none of this, he inherited the human nature in its pre fallen condition, when our natures were perfect before the fall. Jesus was not perfected because he resisted sin. Isnt that kind of a works base type of thinking?

Oblio · Sep 5, 2003

Luke 1:39-49 RSVA In those days Mary arose and went with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, (40) and she entered the house of Zechari'ah and greeted Elizabeth. (41) And when Elizabeth heard the greeting of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit (42) and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! (43) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? (44) For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. (45) And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord." (46) And Mary said, "My soul magnifies the Lord, (47) and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, (48) for he has regarded the low estate of his handmaiden. For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; (49) for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

Benedicta00 · Sep 5, 2003

Okay, wait I think we are all confused here, or maybe it is just me.

We do not think we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin just what it caused and that is our being cut off from God and the consequence is that we have a fallen wounded nature prone to all kinds of imperfections that breed sin.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Lotar said:
Yes she is. Just remove the St

Oh! Okay.

Well, then you are right, Elizabeth did say Mary is blessed throughout all the generations, and indeed she is! She is blessed in the sense that we appreciate what she did by bearing and raising our Savior. And I'm sure that God is happy with her, the way He is happy with Abraham, who seems to have at least as important a role as Mary does.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

Shelb5 said:
Okay, wait I think we are all confused here, or maybe it is just me.

We do not think we inherit the guilt of Adam's sin just what it caused and that is our being cut off from God and the consequence is that we have a fallen wounded nature prone to all kinds of imperfections that breed sin.

I'm not sure that's exactly what Catholics believe. In the the catechism, infant baptism washes away original sin. But babies still grow up to sin. Even after baptism washes away the responsibility for Adam's sin, the sin nature and the separation from God due to our sin continues.

The baptism rite says that it is to wash away original sin, meaning the guilty stain of Adam's sin, not the sin nature that is the consequence of his sin inherited by every human.

Oblio · Sep 5, 2003

She is blessed in the sense that we appreciate what she did by bearing and raising our Savior.

For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed;

Note the term will call ...

Not that some denominations don't do this, but many totaly ignore Mary the Theotokos.

ZiSunka · Sep 5, 2003

We call her blessed, we just don't venerate her. She blessed us by being willing to bear Jesus, but she did not have super-human status.

Oblio · Sep 5, 2003

We call her blessed, we just don't venerate her.

and she exclaimed with a loud cry, "Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb! (43) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

This is all vereration is, showing honor and love to one who is worthy of such.

Lotar · Sep 5, 2003

Oblio said:
Note the term will call ...

Not that some denominations don't do this, but many totaly ignore Mary the Theotokos.

I don't know of any that totally ignore her. We call her blessed when we tell the Christmas story.

Plus this wasn't a commandment, it was a statement.

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