Vineyard church

[Goodbook]

just want to know what kind of church are vineyard churches, and what category would it come under on this forum? Is it pentecostal?
Thanks.

 

[Albion]

just want to know what kind of church are vineyard churches, and what category would it come under on this forum? Is it pentecostal?
Thanks.

This article should answer your questions well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches

 

[farout]

This article should answer your questions well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Vineyard_Churches

Calvary Chapel might be a church trying as well.

 

[Albion]

?? The two don't have a lot in common, but the question was only about Vineyard anyway.

 

[farout]

?? The two don't have a lot in common, but the question was only about Vineyard anyway.

I have been to both for some number of times with the Vineyard and years with CC. I feel they have some common interests. So what was so wrong in saying so? Are we being a mite bit picky? Your remark stifles dialogue. I see many posts and threads that make posts that have NOTHING whatsoever to do with the topic. Yet I post this and you seem to admonish me? have I misunderstood you?

 

[Albion]

I have been to both for some number of times with the Vineyard and years with CC. I feel they have some common interests. So what was so wrong in saying so?

I think someone needs to calm down a bit. No one was being "admonished." On this forum we don't offer advice that wasn't requested, that's all. I'm sure that there are dozens of different denominations that are quite admirable in various ways, but that wasn't what we were asked about.

 

[keith99]

Calvary Chapel might be a church trying as well.

I'd agree. I'll say why at the end of this rather long post.

I attended the Vineyard for a few years, becoming the assistant sound manager of the Venice Vineyard. (That means I was a techie type and could run cable and do most of the technical stuff on the sound board. Like many Churches getting a position was a case of being willing to help, always short staffed).

I started by attending the Santa Monica Vineyard because a friend went there. Some after a while the Santa Monica Vineyard 'birthed' The Venice Vineyard. Their term. Not a split, not really missionary work. Actually thinking of it as giving birth comes pretty close. A pastor and some in the congregation start up a new church in this case with a financial starter (which I think but do not know is the usual case).

I made a couple of trips to the Anaheim Vineyard, the mother church where John Wimber preached. One thing about Anaheim is that when I was there people sang in tongues. Not do wap singing but something they considered a real language. I gained a lot of respect for Paul at that point as my reaction was that they were nuts, just as he predicted.

All 3 were significantly different, but some things were the same.

Worship music was contemporary. But some traditional hymns were sung. Amazing Grace comes to mind. Some songs could be considered performance, but most were sing along.

Dress was casual to very casual.

Anaheim seemed like a mega church. Perhaps unavoidable.

The head pastor of Santa Monica was an excellent preacher. That was his strength. His preaching was sound and lacking errors when he used current events of the like, which in my experience is unusual. He fact checked, every time. The pastoral staff included a 'recovered' gay who was married. There was also a female pastor. I'm positive both of these occasionally were the pastor for a service.

Venice had just the one Pastor and his preaching was not as strong. Not as careful. But his strength was pastoral care.

Both Venice and Santa Monica encouraged attending bible study groups. I attended at least one group from each. Fellowship was as important as studying the Bible and if someone in any of the groups I attended had a problem they wanted help with that always was more important.

Santa Monica ran 2 services. After the second service quite a few people went to the beach to play beach volleyball. There were few who made it more often than Jim, the head pastor. (I tended to catch the early service and then get in a ride on the beach bike path before making it to the courts which were next to the path).

After the birthing of Venice things were interesting. I attended The Venice Vineyard but still made it to the Santa Monica volleyball game and attended a Bible Study were all, all save one, attended the Santa Monica Vineyard. I wanted to mention that because no one found that unusual.

But not long after that something happened that anyone considering the Vineyard should be aware of. The Vineyard became infested with the Kansas City Prophets. In some of the churches they were treated like literal OT prophets. In others they were close to ignored. Santa Monica ignored them. Anaheim and Venice embraced them. At that time I worked in Downtown Los Angeles and was able to work a slightly early shift and get off at 3:30, managing to miss the worst of rush hour both ways. Because of friends at Venice I tended to listen to the daily CRI (Christian Research Institute) broadcast. I had already become very concerned about the Kansas City Prophets. They just seemed off. One particular was that they were constantly saying all the great things the Vineyard would do. Often it was what children not yet born would accomplish. All good happy stuff. But I am educated. Scripture runs the other direction, destruction is coming or you will have 7 good years, better stock up cuz 7 leans ones will follow. Even pagan prophecy follows that pattern. Beware the ides of March. Beware of Greeks Bearing gifts. Or even film adaptions of literature, On that day your captain will go to his grave an rise again and beckon for you to follow and all, all save one will follow.

One other boast was how close one of them was to Paul Cain. That he and Paul would call each other and say 'You're fine, how am I?' So when someone called CRI about Paul Cain and the CRI guy let loose with both barrels I was all ears. This was back in the dark ages. No internet as we know it. What is now available for free cost me quite a lot. Not that CRI charged much, but just covering the cost of tapes and paper adds up. There was a lot and I'm betting a lot more now.

Long story short. I spent a lot more duplicating stuff and getting it to those I cared about or anyone else who would listen. But in one way they were very good. They never gave a date and they set the table well talking about births in Scripture that happened well beyond normal child bearing years. Until those whose kids were prophesied to do great things dies childless there was nothing indisputable to point to. Well until they slipped and said something would happen before the end of the year. At that point I made a prophecy of my own. That nothing would happen and that I would be calling people out come new years day.

Nothing happened. I called people out and nothing changed. I shook the dust off my feet and left. Not alone. One very interesting thing is that I do not think I convinced a single person after the first 5 minutes. Their mind was either changed immediately or never. Oh some did verify and I liked that. One in particular became a far stronger force than I was.

I said I'd get back to Calvary Chapel. There were several people looking for a new church at that point. The one who did more than I went to Calvary Chapel.

I would not advise against the Vineyard. While not perfect the Santa Monica Vineyard by far had more positive features. I would however advise one to dig a bit and find out what contact if any a specific Vineyard had with the Kansas City Prophets and similar things.

 

[John Davidson]

just want to know what kind of church are vineyard churches, and what category would it come under on this forum? Is it pentecostal?
Thanks.

Hi Goodbook, the Vineyard is a non-denominational association. It was started by Calvary Chapel Pastor John Wimber. They are similar to Calvary Chapel but there are some differences. They are a very solid bible based Christian church.

 

[farout]

I'd agree. I'll say why at the end of this rather long post.

I attended the Vineyard for a few years, becoming the assistant sound manager of the Venice Vineyard. (That means I was a techie type and could run cable and do most of the technical stuff on the sound board. Like many Churches getting a position was a case of being willing to help, always short staffed).

I started by attending the Santa Monica Vineyard because a friend went there. Some after a while the Santa Monica Vineyard 'birthed' The Venice Vineyard. Their term. Not a split, not really missionary work. Actually thinking of it as giving birth comes pretty close. A pastor and some in the congregation start up a new church in this case with a financial starter (which I think but do not know is the usual case).

I made a couple of trips to the Anaheim Vineyard, the mother church where John Wimber preached. One thing about Anaheim is that when I was there people sang in tongues. Not do wap singing but something they considered a real language. I gained a lot of respect for Paul at that point as my reaction was that they were nuts, just as he predicted.

All 3 were significantly different, but some things were the same.

Worship music was contemporary. But some traditional hymns were sung. Amazing Grace comes to mind. Some songs could be considered performance, but most were sing along.

Dress was casual to very casual.

Anaheim seemed like a mega church. Perhaps unavoidable.

The head pastor of Santa Monica was an excellent preacher. That was his strength. His preaching was sound and lacking errors when he used current events of the like, which in my experience is unusual. He fact checked, every time. The pastoral staff included a 'recovered' gay who was married. There was also a female pastor. I'm positive both of these occasionally were the pastor for a service.

Venice had just the one Pastor and his preaching was not as strong. Not as careful. But his strength was pastoral care.

Both Venice and Santa Monica encouraged attending bible study groups. I attended at least one group from each. Fellowship was as important as studying the Bible and if someone in any of the groups I attended had a problem they wanted help with that always was more important.

Santa Monica ran 2 services. After the second service quite a few people went to the beach to play beach volleyball. There were few who made it more often than Jim, the head pastor. (I tended to catch the early service and then get in a ride on the beach bike path before making it to the courts which were next to the path).

After the birthing of Venice things were interesting. I attended The Venice Vineyard but still made it to the Santa Monica volleyball game and attended a Bible Study were all, all save one, attended the Santa Monica Vineyard. I wanted to mention that because no one found that unusual.

But not long after that something happened that anyone considering the Vineyard should be aware of. The Vineyard became infested with the Kansas City Prophets. In some of the churches they were treated like literal OT prophets. In others they were close to ignored. Santa Monica ignored them. Anaheim and Venice embraced them. At that time I worked in Downtown Los Angeles and was able to work a slightly early shift and get off at 3:30, managing to miss the worst of rush hour both ways. Because of friends at Venice I tended to listen to the daily CRI (Christian Research Institute) broadcast. I had already become very concerned about the Kansas City Prophets. They just seemed off. One particular was that they were constantly saying all the great things the Vineyard would do. Often it was what children not yet born would accomplish. All good happy stuff. But I am educated. Scripture runs the other direction, destruction is coming or you will have 7 good years, better stock up cuz 7 leans ones will follow. Even pagan prophecy follows that pattern. Beware the ides of March. Beware of Greeks Bearing gifts. Or even film adaptions of literature, On that day your captain will go to his grave an rise again and beckon for you to follow and all, all save one will follow.

One other boast was how close one of them was to Paul Cain. That he and Paul would call each other and say 'You're fine, how am I?' So when someone called CRI about Paul Cain and the CRI guy let loose with both barrels I was all ears. This was back in the dark ages. No internet as we know it. What is now available for free cost me quite a lot. Not that CRI charged much, but just covering the cost of tapes and paper adds up. There was a lot and I'm betting a lot more now.

Long story short. I spent a lot more duplicating stuff and getting it to those I cared about or anyone else who would listen. But in one way they were very good. They never gave a date and they set the table well talking about births in Scripture that happened well beyond normal child bearing years. Until those whose kids were prophesied to do great things dies childless there was nothing indisputable to point to. Well until they slipped and said something would happen before the end of the year. At that point I made a prophecy of my own. That nothing would happen and that I would be calling people out come new years day.

Nothing happened. I called people out and nothing changed. I shook the dust off my feet and left. Not alone. One very interesting thing is that I do not think I convinced a single person after the first 5 minutes. Their mind was either changed immediately or never. Oh some did verify and I liked that. One in particular became a far stronger force than I was.

I said I'd get back to Calvary Chapel. There were several people looking for a new church at that point. The one who did more than I went to Calvary Chapel.

I would not advise against the Vineyard. While not perfect the Santa Monica Vineyard by far had more positive features. I would however advise one to dig a bit and find out what contact if any a specific Vineyard had with the Kansas City Prophets and similar things.

My wife and our children went to the Vineyard in Lancaster CA when they met at the Antelope Valley Fair Grounds. I understood Keith Green sold a vehicle to get of keep it going. It was nice, no speaking in tongues then. I also went to a Vineyard at Richard Gabaur Air base in Kansas City, MO, but we felt uncomfortable. We went to Calvary Chapel In Osage Beach, Mo for several years and enjoyed that very much. We wanted a youth group for our teenage daughter and when she left home we joined a SBC near our home.

I followed Keith Green for a number of years, I saw him in concert in Phoenix AZ in 1975 or so. I do have most of his music.

I too listen to the Bible Answerman and believe he has some good points of concern about the Vineyard in some places.

 

[Goodbook]

Ok thanks I dont know too much about them one of the bible teacher ladies goes to one, they rent a venue they dont have established churches.

Also i think I heard of the name John Wimber. But am a bit wary of those extreme prophet type churches. So its originally started in america or california is that correct?

Does it have anything to do with Bethel? I know Elim churches have opned the door to Bethel. I thought they were ok at first but seems theyve been infiltrated...

I havent heard of any calvary chapel churches here. We have bible chapel but thats Plymouth brethren.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Ok thanks I dont know too much about them one of the bible teacher ladies goes to one, they rent a venue they dont have established churches.

Also i think I heard of the name John Wimber. But am a bit wary of those extreme prophet type churches. So its originally started in america or california is that correct?

Does it have anything to do with Bethel? I know Elim churches have opned the door to Bethel. I thought they were ok at first but seems theyve been infiltrated...

I havent heard of any calvary chapel churches here. We have bible chapel but thats Plymouth brethren.

Vineyard itself and Bethel have nothing to do with each other. However, there are some Vineyard pastors and Vineyard churches that do have links with Bethel. You would need to ask the church leadership of the congregation you attend what they think of it. Some think Bethel is really out there, and they want nothing to do with it. Some really admire it and are strongly associated with it.

It isn't just Bethel that you need to watch out for, but the whole theology/movement that goes along with it -- the New Apostolic Reformation. Does the particular Vineyard Church you are looking at promote modern day Prophets and Apostles? How do they view the spiritual gifts? How do they view angels and spiritual experiences? By what method do they test prophetic words, etc? How do they view Todd Bentley and the Florida Outpouring several years ago? How do they view the Toronto Airport (now called Catch the Fire) church? How do they view the Kansas City Prophets?

My experience with the Vineyard was a bit different from Keith99's. I didn't start attending a Vineyard church until 2005, well after the Kansas City Prophets and Toronto Blessing had first appeared. In about 1995, the Toronto Airport Vineyard had been asked to leave the Association of Vineyard Churches. I never even heard of the Toronto Blessing or the Kansas City Prophets until I was doing online research during the time of Todd Bentley's "revival" several years ago.

When the Toronto Airport Church was asked to leave the Vineyard, several other churches left with it. However, there were still some that promoted it. Even Randy Clark, who was largely responsible for the Toronto Blessing, has since left the Vineyard. He actually recently received a Doctorate degree from another United Methodist seminary -- but that is getting into a different topic. Anyway, these individuals started their own movements -- not denominations, but movements that became attractive to many non-denominational churches (as well as some charismatic congregations in mainline churches). One of these influential movements is called the New Apostolic Reformation.

The Vineyards I attended were all fairly theologically solid churches until the whole Todd Bentley thing broke out. When that "revival" broke out, only the Vineyard in my hometown got into it. Rich Nathan, the senior pastor of Vineyard Columbus actually preached a sermon against Bentley's revival, although he did not name Bentley's name. Then there was a leadership change at both the Vineyard in my hometown as well as the one I was attending in the community where my graduate school was located. These were both very small churches.

When both churches got new pastors, the direction of both churches changed. The new pastors put more emphasis on experience and feeling loved by God than they did on the actual gospel. There was a completely different focus. There were no strange spiritual manifestations or anything, but the preaching in both churches started going off course. The pastors of both of these churches admired Bill Johnson and Bethel Church, along with other authors in the New Apostolic Reformation movement. They started promoting some of these books.

The pastor at the Vineyard in my hometown had attended Dutch Sheet's church (Dutch Sheets is in the New Apostolic Reformation movement), and brought some of Dutch Sheet's theology into the church. He began promoting Dutch Sheet's book on Intercessory Prayer, as well as some dominionism/Manifest Sons of God doctrine. He also introduced guided imagery into his actual sermons. The church leadership also began to show Bethel's Voice of the Apostles Conference as an instructional video. With much tears and prayers, I decided to leave and go back to the church I grew up in. I loved the people at that church, and grieved over what it once was. As an aside, I learned recently that this congregation is going to get a new pastor again. I might check it out to see what this congregation is like under a new pastor.

Vineyard Columbus is still very solid theologically (though there are members there that are into the New Apostolic Reformation teachings). There are many other Vineyard churches that are solid. You just have to be willing to weed through it and find out whether or not the congregation you are interested in holds to the gospel or something else. You would have to do this regardless of what denomination you join. There are churches in every denomination that are theologically sound, and there are churches in every denomination that are not preaching the gospel.

I really do like the Vineyard, but they have weaknesses, just as every denomination does. There is no perfect church. Vineyard pastors are not equally trained. Some have theological training and some have none. The Association does not have an official stance on some of the controversial aspects of its history (the Toronto Blessing and Kansas City Prophets), nor a stance on current spiritual practices and teachings found in many churches (the New Apostolic Reformation).

 

[John Davidson]

So its originally started in america or california is that correct?

Yes, the first Vineyard was in California. If you're not familiar with Calvary Chapel I suggest you read up on them.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Vineyard itself and Bethel have nothing to do with each other. However, there are some Vineyard pastors and Vineyard churches that do have links with Bethel. You would need to ask the church leadership of the congregation you attend what they think of it. Some think Bethel is really out there, and they want nothing to do with it. Some really admire it and are strongly associated with it.

It isn't just Bethel that you need to watch out for, but the whole theology/movement that goes along with it -- the New Apostolic Reformation. Does the particular Vineyard Church you are looking at promote modern day Prophets and Apostles? How do they view the spiritual gifts? How do they view angels and spiritual experiences? By what method do they test prophetic words, etc? How do they view Todd Bentley and the Florida Outpouring several years ago? How do they view the Toronto Airport (now called Catch the Fire) church? How do they view the Kansas City Prophets?

My experience with the Vineyard was a bit different from Keith99's. I didn't start attending a Vineyard church until 2005, well after the Kansas City Prophets and Toronto Blessing had first appeared. In about 1995, the Toronto Airport Vineyard had been asked to leave the Association of Vineyard Churches. I never even heard of the Toronto Blessing or the Kansas City Prophets until I was doing online research during the time of Todd Bentley's "revival" several years ago.

When the Toronto Airport Church was asked to leave the Vineyard, several other churches left with it. However, there were still some that promoted it. Even Randy Clark, who was largely responsible for the Toronto Blessing, has since left the Vineyard. He actually recently received a Doctorate degree from another United Methodist seminary -- but that is getting into a different topic. Anyway, these individuals started their own movements -- not denominations, but movements that became attractive to many non-denominational churches (as well as some charismatic congregations in mainline churches). One of these influential movements is called the New Apostolic Reformation.

The Vineyards I attended were all fairly theologically solid churches until the whole Todd Bentley thing broke out. When that "revival" broke out, only the Vineyard in my hometown got into it. Rich Nathan, the senior pastor of Vineyard Columbus actually preached a sermon against Bentley's revival, although he did not name Bentley's name. Then there was a leadership change at both the Vineyard in my hometown as well as the one I was attending in the community where my graduate school was located. These were both very small churches.

When both churches got new pastors, the direction of both churches changed. The new pastors put more emphasis on experience and feeling loved by God than they did on the actual gospel. There was a completely different focus. There were no strange spiritual manifestations or anything, but the preaching in both churches started going off course. The pastors of both of these churches admired Bill Johnson and Bethel Church, along with other authors in the New Apostolic Reformation movement. They started promoting some of these books.

The pastor at the Vineyard in my hometown had attended Dutch Sheet's church (Dutch Sheets is in the New Apostolic Reformation movement), and brought some of Dutch Sheet's theology into the church. He began promoting Dutch Sheet's book on Intercessory Prayer, as well as some dominionism/Manifest Sons of God doctrine. He also introduced guided imagery into his actual sermons. The church leadership also began to show Bethel's Voice of the Apostles Conference as an instructional video. With much tears and prayers, I decided to leave and go back to the church I grew up in. I loved the people at that church, and grieved over what it once was. As an aside, I learned recently that this congregation is going to get a new pastor again. I might check it out to see what this congregation is like under a new pastor.

Vineyard Columbus is still very solid theologically (though there are members there that are into the New Apostolic Reformation teachings). There are many other Vineyard churches that are solid. You just have to be willing to weed through it and find out whether or not the congregation you are interested in holds to the gospel or something else. You would have to do this regardless of what denomination you join. There are churches in every denomination that are theologically sound, and there are churches in every denomination that are not preaching the gospel.

I really do like the Vineyard, but they have weaknesses, just as every denomination does. There is no perfect church. Vineyard pastors are not equally trained. Some have theological training and some have none. The Association does not have an official stance on some of the controversial aspects of its history (the Toronto Blessing and Kansas City Prophets), nor a stance on current spiritual practices and teachings found in many churches (the New Apostolic Reformation).

Hi; I live in Canada, but I've not heard ppl talk about the 'Toronto Blessing' in recent years.

Sometimes movements wane or become known as something else.

The need for people's understanding to be based on abiding precepts in God's Word is I guess emphasized by such factors and events.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Hi; I live in Canada, but I've not heard ppl talk about the 'Toronto Blessing' in recent years.

Sometimes movements wane or become known as something else.

The need for people's understanding to be based on abiding precepts in God's Word is I guess emphasized by such factors and events.

That is good to hear that you haven't heard anyone mention it in recent years. Their current church website is:
http://catchthefire.com/

In this case, the movement has morphed and continued in the theology and practices of the New Apostolic Reformation, and it is present in many non-denominational and denominational churches. In recent years, inroads into theologically conservative mainline churches have been made by Randy Clark, Heidi Baker's husband, and others receiving doctorate degrees from United Theological Seminary (now a theologically conservative seminary within the United Methodist Church).

Last time I checked, Randy Clark was made an adjunct professor at United, and many United Methodist Churches have opened their doors to him to hear him speak. He also continues to try to impart spiritual things to people where ever he goes. He continues to hold Spirit conferences, etc.

Several years ago a man named Todd Bentley, who had some association with Catch the Fire, held a revival in Lakeland, Florida. People from all over the world were flocking to the revival. Much of the same theology and practice that occurred at Toronto was repeated at Todd Bentley's revival. Several of the New Apostolic Reformation apostles held a commissioning ceremony for Todd Bentley.

Bill Johnson's church in Redding, California (Bethel Church) is very popular in some Christian circles. Much of what goes on there, too, is a continuation of Toronto. The same is true with Mike Bickle's church (International House of Prayer). There are churches throughout the US and the rest of the world who continue to be influenced by Toronto beliefs and practices. Some of my friends from college joined a Bible study group that became a church that associated itself with Catch the Fire.

So, unfortunately, this movement did not go away. It has just been repackaged.

Yes, people need to follow the Bible and not chase after spiritual experiences.

 

[faroukfarouk]

That is good to hear that you haven't heard anyone mention it in recent years. Their current church website is:
http://catchthefire.com/

In this case, the movement has morphed and continued in the theology and practices of the New Apostolic Reformation, and it is present in many non-denominational and denominational churches. In recent years, inroads into theologically conservative mainline churches have been made by Randy Clark, Heidi Baker's husband, and others receiving doctorate degrees from United Theological Seminary (now a theologically conservative seminary within the United Methodist Church).

Last time I checked, Randy Clark was made an adjunct professor at United, and many United Methodist Churches have opened their doors to him to hear him speak. He also continues to try to impart spiritual things to people where ever he goes. He continues to hold Spirit conferences, etc.

Several years ago a man named Todd Bentley, who had some association with Catch the Fire, held a revival in Lakeland, Florida. People from all over the world were flocking to the revival. Much of the same theology and practice that occurred at Toronto was repeated at Todd Bentley's revival. Several of the New Apostolic Reformation apostles held a commissioning ceremony for Todd Bentley.

Bill Johnson's church in Redding, California (Bethel Church) is very popular in some Christian circles. Much of what goes on there, too, is a continuation of Toronto. The same is true with Mike Bickle's church (International House of Prayer). There are churches throughout the US and the rest of the world who continue to be influenced by Toronto beliefs and practices. Some of my friends from college joined a Bible study group that became a church that associated itself with Catch the Fire.

So, unfortunately, this movement did not go away. It has just been repackaged.

Yes, people need to follow the Bible and not chase after spiritual experiences.

Thanks for the info.!

I'm firmly of the view that God's Word is so profitable and rich, and the Holy Spirit Who shall not speak of Himself is continually glorifying Christ in the Word, that people in even a small Bible study group that may become independent of a movement that has some questionable aspects can progressively become guided in a constructive and wholesome way and helped in their walk and witness activities. Acts 2.42 is a great guide to such activities.

It's years since I was at college; maybe you were a student since I was.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Thanks for the info.!

I'm firmly of the view that God's Word is so profitable and rich, and the Holy Spirit Who shall not speak of Himself is continually glorifying Christ in the Word, that people in even a small Bible study group that may become independent of a movement that has some questionable aspects can progressively become guided in a constructive and wholesome way and helped in their walk and witness activities. Acts 2.42 is a great guide to such activities.

It's years since I was at college; maybe you were a student since I was.

Sure, God can lead them out of their involvement in that movement.

It has been a few years since I was in college as well...well, quite a few by now. Still, it was recent enough that I was in contact with some of my friends when the whole Todd Bentley thing came about.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Sure, God can lead them out of their involvement in that movement.

It has been a few years since I was in college as well...well, quite a few by now. Still, it was recent enough that I was in contact with some of my friends when the whole Todd Bentley thing came about.

Great you keep in touch with college friends; as the decades go by mine have largely gone their several ways, although 1 or 2 have stayed in touch. The name you mentioned is familiar, but I don't know much about him. I think a year or two ago on these forums he was the subject of a lot of posts; I'm not sure why.

 

[BrianJK]

That is good to hear that you haven't heard anyone mention it in recent years. Their current church website is:
http://catchthefire.com/

In this case, the movement has morphed and continued in the theology and practices of the New Apostolic Reformation, and it is present in many non-denominational and denominational churches. In recent years, inroads into theologically conservative mainline churches have been made by Randy Clark, Heidi Baker's husband, and others receiving doctorate degrees from United Theological Seminary (now a theologically conservative seminary within the United Methodist Church).

Last time I checked, Randy Clark was made an adjunct professor at United, and many United Methodist Churches have opened their doors to him to hear him speak. He also continues to try to impart spiritual things to people where ever he goes. He continues to hold Spirit conferences, etc.

Several years ago a man named Todd Bentley, who had some association with Catch the Fire, held a revival in Lakeland, Florida. People from all over the world were flocking to the revival. Much of the same theology and practice that occurred at Toronto was repeated at Todd Bentley's revival. Several of the New Apostolic Reformation apostles held a commissioning ceremony for Todd Bentley.

Bill Johnson's church in Redding, California (Bethel Church) is very popular in some Christian circles. Much of what goes on there, too, is a continuation of Toronto. The same is true with Mike Bickle's church (International House of Prayer). There are churches throughout the US and the rest of the world who continue to be influenced by Toronto beliefs and practices. Some of my friends from college joined a Bible study group that became a church that associated itself with Catch the Fire.

So, unfortunately, this movement did not go away. It has just been repackaged.

Yes, people need to follow the Bible and not chase after spiritual experiences.

Is this a stain on United Seminary within the UMC, or is this a problem in the UMC? I haven't heard of this. I've heard nothing but good about United Theological Seminary. This is an interesting facet...

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Great you keep in touch with college friends; as the decades go by mine have largely gone their several ways, although 1 or 2 have stayed in touch. The name you mentioned is familiar, but I don't know much about him. I think a year or two ago on these forums he was the subject of a lot of posts; I'm not sure why.

There was a revival going on in Lakeland, Florida. He was the main leader of it. It was controversial for several reasons, including that he physically would sometimes kick people when he was trying to heal them, while making the claim that that's how God told him to heal people. He also talked a lot about angels and visions at this revival. There was an angel that was supposedly assigned to him to help get him money. One of the angels he talked about was named Emma. People came from all over the world to try to get impartations from him. He also said that God told him to not talk about Jesus, but instead to get people to believe in the angel. He said people needed to believe in the supernatural because they already believed in Jesus. He also would get down on all fours and act like an animal.

After the revival was over, it was revealed that he was drunk part of the time. The revival ended because he had been having an affair with one of his staff members. Other people found out about it, and the revival was over. The revival had lasted several months.

 

[faroukfarouk]

There was a revival going on in Lakeland, Florida. He was the main leader of it. It was controversial for several reasons, including that he physically would sometimes kick people when he was trying to heal them, while making the claim that that's how God told him to heal people. He also talked a lot about angels and visions at this revival. There was an angel that was supposedly assigned to him to help get him money. One of the angels he talked about was named Emma. People came from all over the world to try to get impartations from him. He also said that God told him to not talk about Jesus, but instead to get people to believe in the angel. He said people needed to believe in the supernatural because they already believed in Jesus. He also would get down on all fours and act like an animal.

After the revival was over, it was revealed that he was drunk part of the time. The revival ended because he had been having an affair with one of his staff members. Other people found out about it, and the revival was over. The revival had lasted several months.

Oh!

Thanks.