Vigano gives first interview since self-imposed exile

[Michie]

*You are on the Catholic forum*

Vigano corresponded by email with the Washington Post over two months, writing 8,000 words in response to nearly 40 questions. He was blistering in his criticism of Francis, saying "it is immensely sad" that the pope was "blatently lying to the whole world to cover up his wicked deeds."

Continued below.
Archbishop who called on pope to resign gives 1st interview since self-imposed exile

 

[Lost4words]

Is the Pope hiding the truth?

 

[Halbhh]

Consider: Did the tone and timing of Vigano's previous comments did fit what we all learn are the fruits of the Spirit?

Are we to judge other's hearts and assert what we guess is in their hearts, as if we can read their hearts?

But in contrast, Francis's comments have generally fit what we all learn are the fruits of the Spirit.

And as we all learned: "By their fruits you will know them."

So, while none can omnisciently know other's hearts, we can see the tone and quality of their words and actions. Who acts humble? Who acts loving? Who acts gentle?

Who shows peace, forbearance, kindness....?

 

[Davidnic]

Honestly I think Pope Francis is comments toward some of the more Traditional members of the Church have not shown fruits of the Spirit.

Neither has the unprecedented action of not answering the dubia.

 

[Michie]

Yes we've seen the fruits. As far as what is going on. I don't know. I'm not going to go any further than that.

 

[Michie]

Honestly I think Pope Francis is comments toward some of the more Traditional members of the Church have not shown fruits of the Spirit.

Neither has the unprecedented action of not answering the dubia.

Yep.

 

[Lost4words]

I guess we dont know all the facts. Pope Francis needs to open up about the accusations etc.

I hope that God will guide the full truth to come forth soon.

 

[Davidnic]

God will lead us through.

But a game-changer for me was when the Pope himself said he didn't remember the footnote.

There was a dubia specifically about it. It is simply referred to in the Catholic world as of "the footnote"

It is a potential stumbling block for millions.

And he doesn't remember what it says. I pray for the Pope and the Church because that is a serious issue.

 

[Michie]

God will lead us through.

But a game-changer for me was when the Pope himself said he didn't remember the footnote.

There was a dubia specifically about it. It is simply referred to in the Catholic world as of "the footnote"

It is a potential stumbling block for millions.

And he doesn't remember what it says. I pray for the Pope and the Church because that is a serious issue.

Yes every since I read that article at First Things, I know how it made me feel. I can only imagine what others out there are thinking.

 

[Halbhh]

Yes every since I read that article at First Things, I know how it made me feel. I can only imagine what others out there are thinking.

What some others are thinking (via Crux):

Viganò may have made it harder to get to the truth on McCarrick -- (Crux)

I guess we dont know all the facts. Pope Francis needs to open up about the accusations etc.

I hope that God will guide the full truth to come forth soon.

God will lead us through.

But a game-changer for me was when the Pope himself said he didn't remember the footnote.

There was a dubia specifically about it. It is simply referred to in the Catholic world as of "the footnote"

It is a potential stumbling block for millions.

And he doesn't remember what it says. I pray for the Pope and the Church because that is a serious issue.

 

[Halbhh]

Additional articles of interest at Crux related:

Pope's accuser returns to accuse brother in inheritance saga
(what does this tell us?)
(why wasn't McCarrick already laicized, under Benedict?, or even before?.....)
"Vigano revealed those allegations in his explosive claim published in August that Vatican officials had known since 2000 of McCarrick’s alleged misdeeds, but turned a blind eye until Benedict eventually sanctioned him."

Quarter of U.S. Catholics say they have skipped Mass because of abuse crisis

 

[Davidnic]

What it tells us is that's the logical fallacy of poisoning the well.

 

[Halbhh]

Didn't Vigano basically claim to know exactly what is in Francis's heart, to state flatly that Francis does remember?
Viganò Accuses Pope Francis of Lying

How can one know this, without omniscience?

Well, one could think they 'know' it by judging, by a harsh assumption (guessing the worst, judging harshly)....

 

[Davidnic]

Didn't Vigano basically claim to know exactly what is in Francis's heart, to state flatly that Francis does remember???
Viganò Accuses Pope Francis of Lying

How can one know this, without omniscience? Well, one could think they 'know' it by judging, by a harsh assumption (guessing at the worst, judging harshly)....

So do you believe the Pope that he doesn't remember about Cardinal Mccarrick as well as he doesn't remember about the contents of the footnote?

I will take the Pope at his word but there are disturbing ramifications for that.

 

[Davidnic]

I don't know how much of what Archbishop Vigano said is correct. That will all come out.

But so far what has come out leans toward his side. originally it was denied there were sanctions now we see released correspondence that there was. The Pope may indeed have forgotten this. It was not charitable or humble for the pope to imply that the archbishop was the devil, as your linked article mentions.

But it all comes back to the fact that we've moved past didn't know to that fact that he forgot. And he forgot the contents of the footnote.

Giving the Pope the presumption of truth, and I do, it is very hard to face that he does not remember the contents of the footnote. Given its importance. Given the direct questions about it. The Pope and Church need all our prayers in that case.

 

[Davidnic]

Didn't Vigano basically claim to know exactly what is in Francis's heart, to state flatly that Francis does remember?
Viganò Accuses Pope Francis of Lying

How can one know this, without omniscience?

Well, one could think they 'know' it by judging, by a harsh assumption (guessing the worst, judging harshly)....

It's possible that the reason he is so firm that the Pope must remember is that the other alternative, that he would forget something of this magnitude, it's something he cannot accept. So he goes to the fact that he must be lying.

 

[Halbhh]

So do you believe the Pope that he doesn't remember about Cardinal Mccarrick as well as he doesn't remember about the contents of the footnote?

I will take the Pope at his word but there are disturbing ramifications for that.

I don't have any reason to think Francis isn't telling the truth, though of course here in mortal bodies, all are only guessing.
Here's why I believe Francis is more credible (as he is to most people, including most Catholics (64% of Catholics: see 2nd link in post #11 above)).

Why Francis is credible to me here: Pope Francis Forgets

(About memory -- I'd want a bishop to generally do good and generally teach from Christ's words, as Francis does, as far more important than to have an usually perfect memory)

 

[Davidnic]

I don't have any reason to think Francis isn't telling the truth, though of course here in mortal bodies, all are only guessing.
Here's why I believe Francis is more credible (as he is to most people, including most Catholics (69% of Catholics: see 2nd link in post #11 above)).

Why Francis is credible to me here: Pope Francis Forgets

(About memory -- I'd want a bishop to generally do good and generally teach from Christ's words, as Francis does, as far more important than to have an usually perfect memory)

It's not about a perfect memory it's about remembering the most controversial part of his own encyclical his own Bishops submitted a formal dubia about.

It's about forgetting that there were potential serious sexual abuse charges and sanctions on a Cardinal that he personally gave great authority to including helping to negotiate the China issue.

It's fine to believe the Pope. As I said I give him the benefit of the truth.

But this isn't minor memory lapses. I've worked in the library for 20 years this is akin to me forgetting the library of Congress classification system.

If we believe the Pope... And he gives us no reason not to, it brings up some troubling questions given the magnitude of what he's forgetting. Not only on a personal level but on the level of who can manipulate those gaps.

So yes we can believe him. But we then can't completely ignore the challenges that brings up.

 

[Davidnic]

I think what we all can agree to is that the Pope and the Church, are in our daily loving prayers.

 

[Halbhh]

I don't know how much of what Archbishop Vigano said is correct. That will all come out.

But so far what has come out leans toward his side. originally it was denied there were sanctions now we see released correspondence that there was. The Pope may indeed have forgotten this. It was not charitable or humble for the pope to imply that the archbishop was the devil, as your linked article mentions.

But it all comes back to the fact that we've moved past didn't know to that fact that he forgot. And he forgot the contents of the footnote.

Giving the Pope the presumption of truth, and I do, it is very hard to face that he does not remember the contents of the footnote. Given its importance. Given the direct questions about it. The Pope and Church need all our prayers in that case.

I thought it was not important Francis remember some precise wording but instead stay focused on the real principles.

It's all about principles that are correct. Like so many Catholics, this seems exactly correct to me:

"[The footnote] didn't go as far as fully reinstating the right to communion or reconciliation, but as Pope Francis noted, encouraged us to remember that the Eucharist "is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak."
Divorced and remarried, they receive communion once again

Here it's recognized that individual cases are not alike to each other. Some are not like others.

And, the Eucharist is not a prize for the perfect, but a powerful medicine and nourishment for the weak.