Views of Evolution Depend on Knowledge

[OldWiseGuy]

So is every religious believer in the world.

And to the extent that they contribute to peace and goodwill they are to be lauded.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is implicit that 'flightless' birds aren't included in comments about birds that do.

Come on man, if you back peddle any further, you're gonna go right through that wall you are standing against.

You didn't talk about specific birds. You talked in general about the "design" of wings.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Of course not. That's the way formal education operates.

The horror right..... actually valueing evidence and understanding over simply believing whatever the perceived authority tells you!

 

[theQuincunx5]

Of course, but the subject is scientific knowledge vs the knowledge of God as revealed by the Holy Spirit.

But in your post you so clearly linked science and evil that sounded like one thing to you.

The rhetoric seems a bit over the top for a TOOL like science. And that's all science is or ever has been: a tool. It would be like running into the kitchen and declaring the can opener to be evil because someone once used it to open a spoiled can of food.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That's easy. Millions of Christians are morally bound to not do evil behaviors. No preventative scientific method is better at doing this. This represents the largest, albeit passive, benefit to society one can imagine.

You mean like discrimination against gay people, serving non-christians with empty threats of eternal torment, burning witches at the stake, 2000 years of prosecution of jews, biblical validation of keeping slaves, discrimination of women,... ?

Also: how do you make moral judgements without knowledge that informs you of the consequences of your actions? Science provides that knowledge.

Of course if one is benefitting from the suffering of others this is unimportant, and probably counterproductive.

Like the church? Religions, christianity in particular, actually exploits the suffering of people all the time. It's not at all a surprise that christianity is typically popular among the poor and the sick.

I believe we have more important needs here on earth.

And having a space program, somehow prevents us to deal with problems on earth?
Nobody is allowed to do any project or any research that doesn't directly deal with those needs that you believe we have?

When we address them then we can go play among the stars.

Has it occured to you that "playing among the stars", could actually help us solving our problems down on earth?

 

[bhsmte]

CF, is highly entertaining!

 

[pitabread]

The practice of Christianity will solve more problems than the practice of science. This should be obvious.

If it was "obvious" then it would be empirically demonstrable. Do you have any empirical evidence to back up this idea? Because so far you haven't demonstrated that this is actually true.

 

[theQuincunx5]

That's easy. Millions of Christians are morally bound to not do evil behaviors. No preventative scientific method is better at doing this.

And the garage door opener CERTAINLY never did that either! Garage door openers are clearly inferior to religious faith. Unless you want to open the garage door.

This represents the largest, albeit passive, benefit to society one can imagine.

Arguably this is MORE true for Sikhs and Jains. As such why don't you follow Sikhism or Jainism?

I believe we have more important needs here on earth. When we address them then we can go play among the stars.

Would you rather have lived in ancient Israel where the average lifespan was probably <40 years old and people died of horrific infections that we barely even think about today? Would you have preferred to live at a time when the ability to get food on a daily basis was a huge question for you? Would you have preferred to live in the Dark Ages in Europe where the Church was ascendant but the livelihoods of the people were pretty awful?

What problems, specifically, are you referring to?

 

[pitabread]

That's easy. Millions of Christians are morally bound to not do evil behaviors. No preventative scientific method is better at doing this. This represents the largest, albeit passive, benefit to society one can imagine.

Unfortunately, the real-world data doesn't necessarily support this.

Take the Bible Belt, for example. It's the most religious part of the United States, but it also tends to have higher preponderance of social issues (violent crime, STD rates, lower education, and so on).

Now this isn't also to say that religion causes these issues either. Examining society and social issues is a complex subject and there are various factors that influence different social behaviors. You need to look at things like culture and demographics, economic factors, governance, and so on. Religious belief is only one piece of a much bigger puzzle.

Thus the idea there is a singular "cure-all" ideology or solution is overly naive and not reflective of the complexity of human behavior.

 

[bhsmte]

If it was "obvious" then it would be empirically demonstrable. Do you have any empirical evidence to back up this idea? Because so far you haven't demonstrated that this is actually true.

I have yet to see any.

He has a lot of personal opinion though, which seems to bring him comfort.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The horror right..... actually valueing evidence and understanding over simply believing whatever the perceived authority tells you!

Kids aren't encouraged to think or question until they get to college, and even then if they irk their professors it will show up in their grades. You don't buck authority.

Education is meant more to civilize and socialize kids than educate them. I wonder why that is?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Come on man, if you back peddle any further, you're gonna go right through that wall you are standing against.

You didn't talk about specific birds. You talked in general about the "design" of wings.

You guys reflexively reach for the red herrings.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Thus the idea there is a singular "cure-all" ideology or solution is overly naive and not reflective of the complexity of human behavior.

Complex = crafty.
The cure-all for all this crafty, evil thinking is "Just say No". Simple.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

What problems, specifically, are you referring to?

All problems that can be traced to immorality; either doing what you shouldn't do, or not doing what you should do.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

If it was "obvious" then it would be empirically demonstrable. Do you have any empirical evidence to back up this idea? Because so far you haven't demonstrated that this is actually true.

Who would conduct such empirical studies (the fox is already busy guarding the henhouse).

The question is can science solve mankind's spiritual problems. I don't think so.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

Arguably this is MORE true for Sikhs and Jains. As such why don't you follow Sikhism or Jainism?

Christianity works pretty good for me.

 

[theQuincunx5]

All problems that can be traced to immorality; either doing what you shouldn't do, or not doing what you should do.

Here's something to think about: upon scientifically studying the world we find out that gay people feel gay from their earliest memories (hence it's not some sick "choice" they decide to make because it's so evil and fun). Upon scientifically studying the world we find that homosexuality occurs in nature, not just humans.

So is homosexuality immoral?

 

[theQuincunx5]

Christianity works pretty good for me.

But you will agree that Sikhs and Jains are even better about it, right?

 

[theQuincunx5]

The question is can science solve mankind's spiritual problems. I don't think so.

You probably shouldn't look for science to solve spiritual problems. Unless it is when science shows some rather more pedestrian, chemical reasons for some "spiritual" problems. At that point science can step in and do the heavy lifting. Say things like certain mental diseases.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

But you will agree that Sikhs and Jains are even better about it, right?

I know nothing about these.