Veteran's Day

[driewerf]

Really not cool at all.

It takes more brains and more guts to think for yourself with all the risks it takes, than to obey the orders like a sheep.

 

[driewerf]

War is what keeps the world economy stable. Accept it.

Oh yeah. To kill or mutilate an entire generation of young people, the most productive section of the population keeps the economy stable.

 

[driewerf]

Jean Jaures; another man killed for opposing the war.

 

[driewerf]

War is what keeps the world economy stable. Accept it.

If that's the case we have to discard the economy.

 

[driewerf]

YouTube - Bob Dylan Masters Of War Cover

 

[Gracchus]

World War I and World War II were the same war, with a break, just as prize-fighters bread between rounds to recover from exhaustion and to get their cuts patched.
Death is a soldier's pay for obedience an courage. Contempt is a man's pay for disobedience and courage.
Mostly, war is a bunch of men trying to sink into the ground while wetting themselves. Some make it into the ground and some just wet themselves.
You can't serve God and mammon, you can't serve God and Caesar, and you can't serve God and Mars.

 

[driewerf]

World War I and World War II were the same war, with a break, just as prize-fighters bread between rounds to recover from exhaustion and to get their cuts patched.

I agree.

Death is a soldier's pay for obedience an courage. Contempt is a man's pay for disobedience and courage.

I disagree. Death is a soldiers pay for his cowardness.
it takes more guts to disobey enlistment and to face to consequences. People like Jaures, Liebknecht, Rosa Luxemburg but also Arthur Edington payed a very high price to be loyal to their beliefs and opinions.

 

[Gracchus]

Death is a soldier's pay for obedience an courage. Contempt is a man's pay for disobedience and courage.

I disagree. Death is a soldiers pay for his cowardness.
it takes more guts to disobey enlistment and to face to consequences. people like Jaures, Liebknecht, Rosa Luxemburg but also Arthur edington payed a very high price to be loyal to their beliefs and opinions.

And some who go to war pay a very high price for loyalty to their beliefs and opinions, however mistaken you (or I) may think they are.
War kills indifferently the brave and the cowardly alike. And some who refuse to go, refuse because of principle and some refuse because of cowardice.
But war corrupts, maims and brutalizes everyone.
You pays your nickel and you makes your choice.

 

[driewerf]

But WW1 definitly wasn´t such a war... it was a completely meaningless and useless wholesale slaughter, and regardless of what the participating soldiers were told... they weren´t fighting for freedom or for honour... they were fighting for the stupidity and stubborness of their superiours.

Dear Freodin,
WW I wasn't meaningless, but on the contrary a logical consequence of colonial capitalism.

to understand WWI we have to go back to the 19th century. France, Spain and the UK had formed very early as nations, and had powerfull sea forces. This allowed them colonise big parts of the non-European world.

Germany and Italy formed only very late as nations, Germany under Bismarck, as you know, Italy under Garibaldi. This made that they came too late to claim any colony. Russia (tsarist Russia) existed as a nation, but indutrialised very late, so it too had no colonies. The decaying Ottoman Empire was the ideal way to expand for Russia (mostly because Russia hadn't no harbour that remains ice-free). But the English were already very present in that area.

The rapid industrial growth of Germany made that Germany desperatly needed colonies: for mineral resources, for cheap labour force and to have access to more markets. But the only way to get one was to wrench out of the claws of anoyher nation. So the big clash between the different European powers was unavoidable - as long as you accept capialist logic, that is- and every diplomat knew this.
Normally, war was even scheduled for 1912. The Germans tried to surpass the British naval supremacy and tried to provoke a war already in 1911 with the so called Panthersprung.
Agadir Crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Many knew the war was coming so a large anti war mouvement developped, mainly socialists and communists. The most prominent names have already been mentioned: Jaures, Liebknecht, Luxemburg, Carla Zetkin. But in other countries too, and internationally the antiwar mouvement developped.

For example, the Second International made resolutions that all workers world wide would oppose the war efforts of their own country.
History of the Second International

This motion was widely ignored at the crucial moments. When the pressure get higher socialist leaders betrayed their prinicples and voted in favour of the war credits. The story goes that when socialist papers published the acceptance of the war credit by the German socialists, Lenin (!) first thought the paper was a forgery.

In the end, draft was installed and all valable man were forced to the war. The socialist parties had betrayed the workers, instead of organising the resistance and opposition.

 

[AV1611VET]

In translation, is says:
we don't fight for the country
and not for German honour.
We die for the stupidity
and for the millionairs.

That's why we had to come over there and fight for you.

Had you guys resisted, Hitler would have ground you to powder.

So instead, you went passive and made up anti-war sentiments so you could sleep at night.

 

[AV1611VET]

It takes more brains and more guts to think for yourself with all the risks it takes, than to obey the orders like a sheep.

Ya -- I know what 'thinking for yourself' gets you here.

And whether you 'think for yourself' or espouse basic doctrine, don't tread on sacred ground (science), or you're [insert insult of choice here].

 

[AV1611VET]

Oh yeah. To kill or mutilate an entire generation of young people, the most productive section of the population keeps the economy stable.

One of science's prophets, Thomas Malthus, says that war is necessary, or we won't survive very long.

Scientists today, who have honed their no-true-scotsman talents, will say he was just philosophizing.

 

[AV1611VET]

Death is a soldier's pay for obedience an courage.

Try freedom.

 

[Cabal]

Why do I get the feeling that those who criticise those "blindly" following orders are "blindly" following the anti-war sentimentalists, like Einstein, Jaures, et al.

 

[Cabal]

It takes more brains and more guts to think for yourself with all the risks it takes, than to obey the orders like a sheep.

And what about those who make the conscious decision to sign up and follow orders? Forget that part?

Look, I agree that warfare is waged for the aims of those at the top, and that should be fought against wherever possible - but to broadbrush all of those involved on the ground as sheep is a huge presumption to make and ignores all the myriad reasons for individual people joining up, their carrying out of orders, and the local context in which they thought is ridiculous, and has no place in this thread.

 

[driewerf]

One of science's prophets, Thomas Malthus, says that war is necessary, or we won't survive very long.

Thomas Malthus can take a hike.

 

[AV1611VET]

Thomas Malthus can take a hike.

YouTube - US Army Song - "The Army Goes Rolling Along"

 

[Freodin]

And what about those who make the conscious decision to sign up and follow orders? Forget that part?

Look, I agree that warfare is waged for the aims of those at the top, and that should be fought against wherever possible - but to broadbrush all of those involved on the ground as sheep is a huge presumption to make and ignores all the myriad reasons for individual people joining up, their carrying out of orders, and the local context in which they thought is ridiculous, and has no place in this thread.

Every different soldier had an individual reason for joining, not deserting, carrying out orders or whatever his existence in the army involved. And that alone should be enough NOT to broadbrush them all as heroes to be worshipped and noble fighters for freedom.

I see that there still wasn´t a single post here that extended such a "honouring" to the veterans that fought against the US. I see several posts that "broadbrush" Germany and German soldiers as "needed killing"... or simply summarized under the all-encompassing term of evil: "Hitler".

So I don´t know what I should think: is it indeed a case of the "we, the good team" against "them, the evil team".... which is broadbrushing at it´s best?

Or do you really see something "honourable" in a lot of people who have never met to kill each other over a topic that isn´t of interest to them?

 

[Cabal]

Every different soldier had an individual reason for joining, not deserting, carrying out orders or whatever his existence in the army involved. And that alone should be enough NOT to broadbrush them all as heroes to be worshipped and noble fighters for freedom.

I see that there still wasn´t a single post here that extended such a "honouring" to the veterans that fought against the US. I see several posts that "broadbrush" Germany and German soldiers as "needed killing"... or simply summarized under the all-encompassing term of evil: "Hitler".

Which I didn't myself - but how does any of this justify you broadbrushing all involved as sheep?

So I don´t know what I should think: is it indeed a case of the "we, the good team" against "them, the evil team".... which is broadbrushing at it´s best?

In the UK it's known as Remembrance Day, which is what I do - remember. My strongest connection is my great-great grandfather who died during WWI. Hardly a war one can sympathise with, a total bloody disaster on all fronts (and I've been to British and German cemeteries alike). But like the name says - it's remembrance day, not apportioning blame day.

Or do you really see something "honourable" in a lot of people who have never met to kill each other over a topic that isn´t of interest to them?

I didn't use the word honourable. And who says the "topic" isn't of interest to those involved?

 

[Chesterton]

Every different soldier had an individual reason for joining, not deserting, carrying out orders or whatever his existence in the army involved. And that alone should be enough NOT to broadbrush them all as heroes to be worshipped and noble fighters for freedom.

I see that there still wasn´t a single post here that extended such a "honouring" to the veterans that fought against the US. I see several posts that "broadbrush" Germany and German soldiers as "needed killing"... or simply summarized under the all-encompassing term of evil: "Hitler".

So I don´t know what I should think: is it indeed a case of the "we, the good team" against "them, the evil team".... which is broadbrushing at it´s best?

Or do you really see something "honourable" in a lot of people who have never met to kill each other over a topic that isn´t of interest to them?

I think you're missing the point. It's not about broadbrushing groups of individuals as good or evil, and just because you're honorable doesn't mean you don't need to be killed. Ronald Reagan visited the Bitburg cemetery to honor German WWII soldiers. He got a lot of flak for it, but I think he was right to do so. I think solidiers fighting for the bad cause are as honorable as the ones fighting for the good cause. But I'm still happy for the victory of the good over the bad.