Verse that seems to challange Calvinists

[orthedoxy]

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


This seems like it's saying one could loose his salvation.
How do you explain?

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Before we begin yet another debate, would you care to explain how you understand 1 Peter 1:3-5? I'll provide it in the ESV translation, though you can use your preferred translation to answer the question. Just let us know which one, if you don't mind.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

 

[orthedoxy]

Before we begin yet another debate, would you care to explain how you understand 1 Peter 1:3-5? I'll provide it in the ESV translation, though you can use your preferred translation to answer the question. Just let us know which one, if you don't mind.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I don't want to debate I just want to hear how this verse is explained.
I believe in eternal security. I believe those God foreknew he also predestined and nobody can change that. I believe God guard’s believers from even sinning so I agree with 1Peter. Many ways we believe the same.

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


This seems like it's saying one could loose his salvation.
How do you explain?

Well, i'd be happy to take a shot at it. Let us remember that Context determines interpretation of a passage. We start with some presuppositions:

• God does not contradict Himself
• The bible, Old and New Testament is the Word of God, inerrant, complete, and sufficient
• Where some passages appear to be teaching contradictory doctrine, they should be understood in light of passages which speak more clearly and directly of the matter.

So, your concern is with Ezekiel 18:24, which reads in the KJV:

But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Well, we don't have to go far to see the limits of that statement. Let's look earlier in the chapter:

5) But if a man be just, and do that which is lawful and right, 6) And hath not eaten upon the mountains, neither hath lifted up his eyes to the idols of the house of Israel, neither hath defiled his heighbor's wife, neither hath come near to a menstruous woman, 7) And hath not oppressed any, but hath restored to the debtor his pledge, hath spoiled none by violence, hath given his bread tothe hungry, and hath covered the naked with a garment; 8) He that hath not given forth upon usury, neither hath taken any increase, that hath withdrawn his hand from iniquity, hath executed true judgement between man and man. 9) Hath walked in my statutes, and hath kept my judgements, to deal truly; he is just, he shall surely live, saith the Lord God.

As you can see, that is a pretty righteous person. What you must ask now is "does such a person exist?" Let me save you the trouble:

9)What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin: 10) As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11) There is none that understandeth. there is none that seeketh after God. 12)They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13) Their throat is an open sepulcher; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14) whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15) their feet are swift to shed blood: 16) destruction and misery are in their ways: 17) and the way of peace have they not known: 18) there is no fear of God before their eyes. 19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Apparently, that person in Ezekiel 18:24 does not exist. The passage is clear in the Romans 3 text that such a person does not exist. So the question remains What is the Ezekiel passage speaking of?

If the overall context of Ezekiel 18 is taken into consideration, it appears to say that We are responsible to God for our own conduct, and not the conduct of our parents or anyone else. Review the entire passage, and if you have further questions, i will try to answer as best as i am able. i hope that this was helpful to you. If not, my apologies.

 

[orthedoxy]

Well, i'd be happy to take a shot at it. Let us remember that Context determines interpretation of a passage. We start with some presuppositions:

• God does not contradict Himself
• The bible, Old and New Testament is the Word of God, inerrant, complete, and sufficient
• Where some passages appear to be teaching contradictory doctrine, they should be understood in light of passages which speak more clearly and directly of the matter.

So, your concern is with Ezekiel 18:24, which reads in the KJV:

Well, we don't have to go far to see the limits of that statement. Let's look earlier in the chapter: As you can see, that is a pretty righteous person. What you must ask now is "does such a person exist?" Let me save you the trouble: Apparently, that person in Ezekiel 18:24 does not exist. The passage is clear in the Romans 3 text that such a person does not exist. So the question remains What is the Ezekiel passage speaking of?

If the overall context of Ezekiel 18 is taken into consideration, it appears to say that We are responsible to God for our own conduct, and not the conduct of our parents or anyone else. Review the entire passage, and if you have further questions, i will try to answer as best as i am able. i hope that this was helpful to you. If not, my apologies.
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Good answer but don't you think God is saying turn from your sins and you will become righteous?
Ezek 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
I know no one is perfect but if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Ezek 18 seems to be talking in the same context of Rom 8:12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation–but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
What do you think?
God bless

 

[Calvinist Dark Lord]

Good answer but don't you think God is saying turn from your sins and you will become righteous?
Ezek 18:21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD . Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
I know no one is perfect but if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
Ezek 18 seems to be talking in the same context of Rom 8:12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation–but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live.
What do you think?
God bless

Just one question. How does a person become righteous? You have said above I know no one is perfect but if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. yet we know that God's standard IS perfection. A righteous man must have zero sin. Again, nobody qualifies, even if (s)he lives a "perfect" life from the point of turning on until death.

Calvinists, and to be more general, Reformation Christians, believe that we posess what Luther referred to as an "Alien" Righteousness, that is to say a righteousness outside of ourselves, that is imputed to the believer. This righteousness is the righteousness of Christ.

The question you must ask is again, "does such a person exist?" The specifics in Ezekiel 18:5-9 are not kept by anyone. There is none righteous. God, speaking through Ezekiel sums up the matter in verse 20:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Verse 21 of the passage STILL begs the question of how the unrighteous becomes righteous, in light of the sins that he has committed in the past. Verse 22 tells us that God doesn't mention the sins of the one who repents (KJV). The English Standard Version renders it as remember the sins of the one who repents.

Again, the Romans passage quoted earlier teaches us that no one is righteous. A sinner sins, that is his or her nature. If one is to become righteous, those past sins must be removed, and the nature of the sinner changed.

Conversely, how does somebody who is righteous change his nature, and become unrighteous? Remember, God's standard is perfection, so one little sin results in death.

What is being revealed in this and similar Old Testament passages is summed up by the Apostle Paul

11) But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. 12) And the law is not of faith: but, the man that doeth them shall live in them. 13) Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of hte law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14) That the blessing of Abraham might come on Gentiles thrugh Jesus Christ; that we might recieve the promise of the Spirit through faith.

and...

Galatians 3:21-26 KJV]21) Is the law against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which culd have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22) But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26) For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

The point is, and was that following the law (which was and is impossible) made nobody righteous, rather it made them sinners when they failed in the slightest little point to keep the law. The purpose of the law, was to demonstrate to mankind it's hopelessness in their own righteousness, and total dependence on the grace of God revealed in Jesus Christ.

So in answer to your question, There is nobody who would turn away from their sin, except by the grace of God. The purpose of the entire Ezekiel passage is to demonstrate that all men are lost under the law.
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[orthedoxy]

When God forgives us all our unrighteousness 1john 1:9 doesn't that make us righteous when we repent?
Granted no one is righteous without repenting.
God bless

 

[tigersnare]

When God forgives us all our unrighteousness 1john 1:9 doesn't that make us righteous when we repent?
Granted no one is righteous without repenting.
God bless

We are declared righteous legally by God at conversion through the imputation of Christ's righteouness, no amount of sinning and repenting changes that.

 

[orthedoxy]

We are declared righteous legally by God at conversion through the imputation of Christ's righteouness, no amount of sinning and repenting changes that.

We are declared righteous because Jesus forgives all our unrighteousness.
1john 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
when Jesus forgives our sins we become righteous,Therefore declared righteous.

Rom 6:3 Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.
5If we have been united with him like this in his death, we will certainly also be united with him in his resurrection. 6For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with,that we should no longer be slaves to sin– 7because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

I would say the bible teaches we become righteous if we have been freed from sin how can anyone say we are not righteous.

I want to know if anyone else could explain Ezek 18?

 

[Lockheed]

Because we continue to sin. (Rom 7) We have a saying, "Christ died for Christian sin." The blood of Christ "saves forever" those who draw near to God through Him. Though they are being sanctified by the Spirit in them, they yet remain in the flesh, "eagerly awaiting the redemption of (their) bodies" and thus the casting off of the final remnants of the corrupted nature.


We are righteous in the sight of God because Christ has paid the price, yet we are still sinners in that we fail to perfectly obey every command. In total, we are commanded to "Be perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect."

A person can be positionally righteous in some manner, having kept the law to the best of their ability like Paul who was considered "to the righteousness of the Law, blameless." All the while being a persecutor of God's people.

Thus, as Luther said, we are simultaneously saint and sinner.

 

[Jon_]

Ezekiel 18:24
"But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.


This seems like it's saying one could loose his salvation.
How do you explain?

Simple. This verse talks about old covenant salvation in accordance with sacrifice. In the old covenant no single sacrifice was sufficient for the coverage of all sins. Sacrifice was required for each trespass. In Christ, we have a sacrifice sufficient to cover all sins, past and present.

This is precisely the error that those who refuse the doctrine of eternal security make. They are too tied to the old testament symbiosis of sin-atonement-sin-atonement. Christ has sufficiently atoned for all our sins. We need only receive faith in Him for our sins to be washed away.

 

[orthedoxy]

Simple. This verse talks about old covenant salvation in accordance with sacrifice. In the old covenant no single sacrifice was sufficient for the coverage of all sins. Sacrifice was required for each trespass. In Christ, we have a sacrifice sufficient to cover all sins, past and present.

This is precisely the error that those who refuse the doctrine of eternal security make. They are too tied to the old testament symbiosis of sin-atonement-sin-atonement. Christ has sufficiently atoned for all our sins. We need only receive faith in Him for our sins to be washed away.

I think most Calvinist would disagree with you.
Are you saying in the Old Testament people didn't have eternal security and in the new they did?
Would that mean they were never chosen by God in the Old Testament?
I think most Calvinists believe the Old Testament people all they had to do is believe as well.
when we read rom 4 we see Paul is saying Abraham was considered righteous because of his faith. I believe this is talking to us don't you?
Would you say Abraham had eternal security? if not then is rom 4 talking to us?
I believe in eternal security I just don't believe God makes his judgment on who is saved without his foreknowledge. Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined.
1pet 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God.

God bless

 

[Jon_]

I think most Calvinist would disagree with you.
Are you saying in the Old Testament people didn't have eternal security and in the new they did?
Would that mean they were never chosen by God in the Old Testament?
I think most Calvinists believe the Old Testament people all they had to do is believe as well.
when we read rom 4 we see Paul is saying Abraham was considered righteous because of his faith. I believe this is talking to us don't you?
Would you say Abraham had eternal security? if not then is rom 4 talking to us?
I believe in eternal security I just don't believe God makes his judgment on who is saved without his foreknowledge. Rom 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined.
1pet 1:2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God.

God bless

Mmm, good points. I'm not a scholar of the Old Testament--this is the dynamic that I was taught growing up. Most of my inquiries into the Old Testament have been limited to Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiates. Perhaps this thread is just what I needed to stir me to study it more intently.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Mmm, good points. I'm not a scholar of the Old Testament--this is the dynamic that I was taught growing up. Most of my inquiries into the Old Testament have been limited to Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiates. Perhaps this thread is just what I needed to stir me to study it more intently.

I too grew up in Arminian Baptist churches that had a very dispensational view of the Old Testiment. It took attending a Reformed church to aid me in understanding the Old Testiment the way it is meant to be read.

 

[Lockheed]

Mmm, good points. I'm not a scholar of the Old Testament--this is the dynamic that I was taught growing up. Most of my inquiries into the Old Testament have been limited to Psalms, Proverbs, and Ecclesiates. Perhaps this thread is just what I needed to stir me to study it more intently.

Yeah, I agree with 'orthedoxy' on this one.

None of the sacrifices remitted sin. They were temporary 'place-holders' if you will, of God's wrath which was poured out on Christ - in the future.

Rom 3:24-25
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;
​

Even though the "blood of bulls and goats" could not remit sin, God "passed over" the sins previously commited unto Christ whereby they were paid for.

Therefore salvation has always been by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus, be it looking forward to Him, or looking back upon Him on the cross.

 

[tigersnare]

Therefore salvation has always been by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus, be it looking forward to Him, or looking back upon Him on the cross.

This is what I have been taught as well Lockheed.

 

[Wilfred of Ivanhoe]

Hey Jon,

This is an opportunity for another shameless plug for my pastor's sermons on sermon audio.com. You can find him at

http://www.sermonaudio.com/search.a...urrSection=sermonsspeaker&keyword=Mark^Gibson

He is a topical preacher and is currently preaching towards the end of Hebrews 10. If you ever listen to sermons in the car or at home, I would encourage you to listen to his sermons from Hebrews 7 -10. This part of Hebrews deals primarily with how the Old Covenant is fullfilled with by Christ and His sacrifice. Also, a good reading of these chapters will help you to understand this concept as well.

 

[CCWoody]

Calvinists, and to be more general, Reformation Christians, believe that we posess what Luther referred to as an "Alien" Righteousness, that is to say a righteousness outside of ourselves, that is imputed to the believer. This righteousness is the righteousness of Christ.

Of course we do, my fine Calvinist brother. We believe exactly as the Bible teaches:

But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us... righteousness.... ~ 1 Co. 1:30.

Christ is my righteousness.

 

[James1979]

orthedoxy
Lusavorchagan

In Romans 4 it talks about Abraham being justified of his faith but if you compare scripture with scripture. Abraham was really justified by the faith of Jesus Christ(Galatians 2:16 KJV), not Abraham's, that was simply a gift given to Abraham such as others as well(ie. repenting)when his spirit was quicken(made alive). Abraham had no faith in God's eyes when he was spiritually dead so therefore Christ perfect faithfulness to his Father made Abraham righteous, not Abraham's faith.

 

[Lockheed]

orthedoxy
Lusavorchagan

In Romans 4 it talks about Abraham being justified of his faith but if you compare scripture with scripture. Abraham was really justified by the faith of Jesus Christ(Galatians 2:16 KJV), not Abraham's, that was simply a gift given to Abraham such as others as well(ie. repenting)when his spirit was quicken(made alive). Abraham had no faith in God's eyes when he was spiritually dead so therefore Christ perfect faithfulness to his Father made Abraham righteous, not Abraham's faith.

Negatory... Abraham was not saved by Jesus' faith, surely He was saved by the work of Christ on Earth and His death on the cross, but the faith was Abraham's. Yes it was a gift of God, but it was not Jesus's faith infused into Abraham.

We are saved by our faith IN Christ, Christ being the subject of our faith. The Greek text of Gal 2:16 does not support the modern understanding of the King James translation. In the age when the KJV was written, the term "faith of" could be interchanged with "faith in". We don't do that now, hense the belief that it is Christ's faith that we are saved by (rather than our own, given to us by God) arose. The notes of the Geneva bible express this fact, even in 16

Instead we are given a gift of faith by God, like a child given the gift of a bicycle. The bicyle is now the child's bike, even though it was a gift. You weren't given Christ's faith, but by faith in Christ you are given His righteousness. As it is written "Abraham believed God...".