Veneration

PeaceB · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
We are all saints, not just those the RC or EO say are saints.

Hmm. So you would seem to agree that "saints" in Scripture refers to people physically present on the Earth, like you and me.

Revelation 5:8 tells us that 24 elders in heaven hold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So how did the 24 elders in heaven come to obtain the prayers of people physically present on the Earth, in your opinion?

One Of The Elect · Sep 28, 2017

tampasteve said:
Forgive me, but I think I just view the text differently. Yes, Heaven is a Kingdom. Yes, the father is King. That is quite clear, and I do not think most Christians would disagree.

However, I feel that you are interpreting 1 Thessalonians differently than I. I believe the author was speaking about living people being over the other living people, not saints that had passed away being over the living. I think that where you are interpreting 5:12...... and are over you in the Lord you are interpreting it as ruling from Heaven to Earth? If so I just do not interpret it that way, and honestly have never heard it interpreted as such to support this stance.

Again, I repeat that I do not think it is wrong to pray to saints. I just think the evidence that they can hear us is not solid. Wrong? No. Right? Maybe. We just do not know.

Perhaps it is not for you to see. If you can not see the apostles are over the church that is your false interpretation. Interpret Rev 12 the way you want. And just because you haven't heard scripture interpreted this way - doesn't mean all the ways you have been indoctrinated to understand it -is right.
For me somethings are just elementary. The First to know, the first of Christ to teach. The first above all others?Seems simple enough for me.Before the apostles accounts of the birth of Christianity who were the teachers of it?

One Of The Elect · Sep 28, 2017

PeaceB said:
Hmm. So you would seem to agree that "saints" in Scripture refers to people physically present on the Earth, like you and me.

Revelation 5:8 tells us that 24 elders in heaven hold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So how did the 24 elders in heaven come to obtain the prayers of people physically present on the Earth, in your opinion?

There are saints on earth and heaven. Your point is what? If you are addressing me,( One of the Elect.) I do not disagree that there are saints on earth, and in heaven. Your point?

One Of The Elect · Sep 28, 2017

PeaceB said:
Hmm. So you would seem to agree that "saints" in Scripture refers to people physically present on the Earth, like you and me.

Revelation 5:8 tells us that 24 elders in heaven hold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So how did the 24 elders in heaven come to obtain the prayers of people physically present on the Earth, in your opinion?

Oh you are speaking to someone else. I read what you were replying to. I agree with you concerning Rev.5:8. God Bless!

PeaceB · Sep 28, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
There are saints on earth and heaven. Your point is what? If you are addressing me,( One of the Elect.) I do not disagree that there are saints on earth, and in heaven. Your point?

I was not addressing you.

tampasteve · Sep 28, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
Perhaps it is not for you to see.

But it is for you to teach as the only right interpretation?

One Of The Elect said:
If you can not see the apostles are over the church that is your false interpretation.

So my interpretation is false but yours must be truth? Aside from a few verses, that are easily interpreted otherwise, you have not been able to add to your interpretation. Scripture interprets scripture, that is an elementary rule in scripture research.

One Of The Elect said:
And just because you haven't heard scripture interpreted this way - doesn't mean all the ways you have been indoctrinated to understand it -is right.

I can absolutely agree that just because I have not heard something before does not mean it is not correct. However, in this case I am actually not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree with your interpretation. Being wrong or right is not actually what I am saying. I simply am saying that I (and most other people, apparently) interpret it differently and do not agree - but that does not mean you are wrong. Finally, I am not sure why you are debating me so hard on this....I actually agree that it is not wrong to pray to the saints. Just that the scriptural evidence for it is scant.

One Of The Elect · Sep 28, 2017

tampasteve said:
But it is for you to teach as the only right interpretation?

So my interpretation is false but yours must be truth? Aside from a few verses, that are easily interpreted otherwise, you have not been able to add to your interpretation. Scripture interprets scripture, that is an elementary rule in scripture research.

I can absolutely agree that just because I have not heard something before does not mean it is not correct. However, in this case I am actually not saying you are wrong, just that I disagree with your interpretation. Being wrong or right is not actually what I am saying. I simply am saying that I (and most other people, apparently) interpret it differently and do not agree - but that does not mean you are wrong. Finally, I am not sure why you are debating me so hard on this....I actually agree that it is not wrong to pray to the saints. Just that the scriptural evidence for it is scant.

"Let what you say be simply ,'Yes or No'; anything more than this comes from evil"- (Matthew5:37)
I have to give a shout out to Peace B who is Catholic and can understand this truth- she put the case to rest with Rev.5:8. God Bless! The Saints in heaven hear the prayers of the saints on earth. And if the apostles are not over the church body and should not be venerated- who are we getting our scriptural quotes from? I am either right or wrong?

W2L · Sep 28, 2017

PeaceB said:
Hmm. So you would seem to agree that "saints" in Scripture refers to people physically present on the Earth, like you and me.

Revelation 5:8 tells us that 24 elders in heaven hold bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

So how did the 24 elders in heaven come to obtain the prayers of people physically present on the Earth, in your opinion?

Its symbolic language.

PeaceB · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
Its symbolic language.

Where does Scripture state that the verse is symbolic?

Phil 1:21 · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
Its symbolic language.

Yep. I always find it a bit inconsistent that some folks want to point to Rev 5:8 as a dictate to pray to saints and Mary (which it isn't) while ignoring the fact that Jesus taught us to pray to only God.

W2L · Sep 28, 2017

PeaceB said:
Where does Scripture state that the verse is symbolic?

Where is the veneration in that scripture?

W2L · Sep 28, 2017

JayW said:
Yep. I always find it a bit inconsistent that some folks want to point to Rev 5:8 as a dictate to pray to saints and Mary (which it isn't) while ignoring the fact that Jesus taught us to pray to only God.

Agreed.

PeaceB · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
Where is the veneration in that scripture?

It isn't as far as I know.

Phil 1:21 · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
Agreed.

This is what happens when folks try to twist scripture to justify their man-made doctrines.

tampasteve · Sep 28, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
"Let what you say be simply ,'Yes or No'; anything more than this comes from evil"- (Matthew5:37)
I have to give a shout out to Peace B who is Catholic and can understand this truth- she put the case to rest with Rev.5:8. God Bless! The Saints in heaven hear the prayers of the saints on earth. And if the apostles are not over the church body and should not be venerated- who are we getting our scriptural quotes from? I am either right or wrong?

If we say scripture only has one interpretation we are going to run into some problems very fast, especially in regards to prophecies of Yeshua from the Jewish scriptures where many of the prophecies have several interpretations and have been fulfilled in more than one way. The sages throughout the history of Christianity and Judaism have taught that scripture can be interpreted in multiple ways, often. For what it's worth, I also do not interpret Rev 5:8 the same as you...but rather as the saints in Heaven are bringing prayers of their own, some say the prayers of the martyrs to be avenged, the matters spoken of in Rev. 6:10.

But again, I still don't see anything in scripture against praying to the saints; so we agree on that. But I just don't think that we are going to agree on the other scripture mentioned, even though I am happy to admit your interpretation could be correct, even if it is not the only truth.

PeaceB · Sep 28, 2017

Deleted b/c non-denom forum.

One Of The Elect · Sep 28, 2017

W2L said:
Its symbolic language.

What is the symbolism? What does it mean?

W2L · Sep 28, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
What is the symbolism? What does it mean?

I dont know, you tell me. Im all ears.

W2L · Sep 28, 2017

One Of The Elect said:
I hear you throwing words at things, yet you convey no meaning.

I dont need to follow RC fairy tales obased on Revelation. Truth is no one can tell you what revelation means. They will give you one of many opposing views

FreeinChrist · Sep 30, 2017

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