Veneration

[One Of The Elect]

Not as defined by any religious denomination but as defined in Definition: deep respectful love, adoration. I have discussions with people from all denominations- Protestant and all its sects, Catholic, Orthodox and even those who follow Judaism only. The Protestant argue veneration is a sin, Catholics are all about it. Orthodox venerate but not as fervently as the Catholics.

Those of Judaism well, it is a non discussion concerning Christian Saints. So, I thought about it, pertaining to the body of Christ, are we not to have deep, respectful love and adoration for each other? What is the confusion ? The Protestants argue to ask a Saint who has passed on to heaven to pray for you is a sin. Why? I have even heard some say, to ask for a saint to pray for you is like talking to the dead. Is not the body of Christ alive even in heaven? Then you have the Catholics who seem to make Saints out of everyone- even those who have not stood for the scriptural doctrine of Christ. Like: Joan of Arc, Who obviously did not know the place of a women , and did not know that Christ said "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." Christ corrected Peter when he cut off the ear of one of the soldiers who came for Christ in the garden.

Yet Joan of arc is wielding a sword acting like a man, following - in my opinion a lying spirit, for her country of France, not the kingdom of heaven. Or Pope John Paul II who taught all religions lead to God, bowed down toward Mecca, Kissed the Koran, appeased Buddhist monks and welcomed pagan religious leaders to the Vatican. He allowed them to perform their ceremonies over the grave of St. Peter, who died for the Word of God and the testimony of Christ- not Buddha, not Mohammad or any other pagan false religion. This is contrary to Christian teachings, PJP2 is made a saint.

So, with that - I believe all saints should be venerated alive on earth or in heaven.
Test with scripture if a person- personifies the definition of a saint, then you can not go wrong. Take not just anyone's word for it -including the Vatican. Test all spirits- concerning apparitions and visitations 1 John4, Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test to see whether they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you will know the spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Yeshua (Jesus) Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time. To whomever: What say you?

 

[Aimz]

Hello One of the Elect,

I am protestant and I think that we should treat others how we would like to be treated while on earth and remember those who have passed who can still inspire us in our own relationship with God.

I do not pray to my deceased relatives only to God the Father through the Son witnesses by the Holy Spirit. I think of them but do not talk to them.

 

[tampasteve]

I think most, not all of course, Protestants would not say that praying to a saint is a "sin" as you put, but rather that it is not necessary as we can talk straight to G-d directly. Further, we do not know that the saints, though alive in Heaven, can hear us when we pray. So, with that logic, why bother? That said, I agree, I have no problem asking a saint to "pray for xyz" as I might ask a friend to pray for me, and I did when I was Catholic. But we should still petition G-d directly, as we have learned from Yeshua/Jesus to do. Now I rarely petition the saints, but rather pray to G-d directly, but I have not problem with other people doing so....as long as the veneration does not stray to far towards worship.

 

[W2L]

Not as defined by any religious denomination but as defined in Definition: deep respectful love, adoration. I have discussions with people from all denominations- Protestant and all its sects, Catholic, Orthodox and even those who follow Judaism only. The Protestant argue veneration is a sin, Catholics are all about it. Orthodox venerate but not as fervently as the Catholics.

Those of Judaism well, it is a non discussion concerning Christian Saints. So, I thought about it, pertaining to the body of Christ, are we not to have deep, respectful love and adoration for each other? What is the confusion ? The Protestants argue to ask a Saint who has passed on to heaven to pray for you is a sin. Why? I have even heard some say, to ask for a saint to pray for you is like talking to the dead. Is not the body of Christ alive even in heaven? Then you have the Catholics who seem to make Saints out of everyone- even those who have not stood for the scriptural doctrine of Christ. Like: Joan of Arc, Who obviously did not know the place of a women , and did not know that Christ said "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." Christ corrected Peter when he cut off the ear of one of the soldiers who came for Christ in the garden.

Yet Joan of arc is wielding a sword acting like a man, following - in my opinion a lying spirit, for her country of France, not the kingdom of heaven. Or Pope John Paul II who taught all religions lead to God, bowed down toward Mecca, Kissed the Koran, appeased Buddhist monks and welcomed pagan religious leaders to the Vatican. He allowed them to perform their ceremonies over the grave of St. Peter, who died for the Word of God and the testimony of Christ- not Buddha, not Mohammad or any other pagan false religion. This is contrary to Christian teachings, PJP2 is made a saint.

So, with that - I believe all saints should be venerated alive on earth or in heaven.
Test with scripture if a person- personifies the definition of a saint, then you can not go wrong. Take not just anyone's word for it -including the Vatican. Test all spirits- concerning apparitions and visitations 1 John4, Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test to see whether they are of God. For many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you will know the spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Yeshua (Jesus) Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of antichrist, which you have heard is coming, and is already in the world at this time. To whomever: What say you?

I dont follow any denomination, for the record. The reason i dont agree with saint veneration is because its foundation is deeply flawed. We are all saints, not just those the RC or EO say are saints. Secondly, there is no biblical teaching or example for veneration of saints, nor praying to them.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Hello One of the Elect,

I am protestant and I think that we should treat others how we would like to be treated while on earth and remember those who have passed who can still inspire us in our own relationship with God.

I do not pray to my deceased relatives only to God the Father through the Son witnesses by the Holy Spirit. I think of them but do not talk to them.

I did not say that. My family is the body of Christ who are not dead. They sit upon thrones the 24 elders, they have received crowns and rule and reign in Christ.. I do ask St peter and all the apostles to pray for me. I believe heaven is a Kingdom and those appointed as judges, those who sit upon thrones do have positions in which they discuss our request and make Judgements accordingly. And I do believe there are many within the book of Rev. who speak on the behalf of Saints on earth. Rev20 speaks of those upon thrones. In the letters to the Churches in Rev, Christ speaks of those who overcome and are permitted to sit upon His Fathers Throne. He speaks about giving them crowns and ruling with an iron scepter as he does. Through Him and in Him of course. Rev. 2:10 be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life . Rev. 2:26
" he who conquers and keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over nations, and he shall rule over them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I MYSELF HAVE RECEIVED POWER FROM MY FATHER; AND I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR, he who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches." We are all saints agree W2L. So I will ask you to pray for me and I you.
Unfortunately you do hold the RCC teaching. You refuse to see the truth of Veneration- Def: deep respectful love , adoration, THE BEST DICTIONARY FOR STUDENTS (KNOWLEDGE IS POWER) Because you reject anything even if it is truth because the RCC promotes it. Truth is truth the RCC doesn't hold all truth. But there is a scriptural support for veneration. That is my argument. 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13 " Therefore encourage one another and build one another up just as you are doing. But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to ESTEEM them very highly in love because of their work." THIS IS VENERATION. It means again: to have great respectful love and adoration. God gave us a very extensive vocabulary. This is the whole of the gospel , TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND ESTEEM EACH OTHER.

 

[Aimz]

I am confused.
Is this reply meant for me?

I did not say that. My family is the body of Christ who are not dead. They sit upon thrones the 24 elders, they have received crowns and rule and reign in Christ.. I do ask St peter and all the apostles to pray for me. I believe heaven is a Kingdom and those appointed as judges, those who sit upon thrones do have positions in which they discuss our request and make Judgements accordingly. And I do believe there are many within the book of Rev. who speak on the behalf of Saints on earth. Rev20 speaks of those upon thrones. In the letters to the Churches in Rev, Christ speaks of those who overcome and are permitted to sit upon His Fathers Throne. He speaks about giving them crowns and ruling with an iron scepter as he does. Through Him and in Him of course. Rev. 2:10 be faithful unto death and I will give you the crown of life . Rev. 2:26
" he who conquers and keeps my works until the end, I will give him power over nations, and he shall rule over them with a rod of iron, as when earthen pots are broken in pieces, even as I MYSELF HAVE RECEIVED POWER FROM MY FATHER; AND I WILL GIVE HIM THE MORNING STAR, he who has an ear let him hear what the spirit says to the churches." We are all saints agree W2L. So I will ask you to pray for me and I you.
Unfortunately you do hold the RCC teaching. You refuse to see the truth of Veneration- Def: deep respectful love , adoration, THE BEST DICTIONARY FOR STUDENTS (KNOWLEDGE IS POWER) Because you reject anything even if it is truth because the RCC promotes it. Truth is truth the RCC doesn't hold all truth. But there is a scriptural support for veneration. That is my argument. 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13 " Therefore encourage one another and build one another up just as you are doing. But we beseech you, brethren, to respect those who labor among you and are over you in the Lord and admonish you, and to ESTEEM them very highly in love because of their work." THIS IS VENERATION. It means again: to have great respectful love and adoration. God gave us a very extensive vocabulary. This is the whole of the gospel , TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER AND ESTEEM EACH OTHER.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Jesus taught us to pray to God, the Creator, not to the creation. That is why I do not pray to saints or Mary.

Like: Joan of Arc, Who obviously did not know the place of a women , and did not know that Christ said "he who lives by the sword shall die by the sword." Christ corrected Peter when he cut off the ear of one of the soldiers who came for Christ in the garden.

Why did Jesus correct Peter? Because Peter was trying to stand in the way of God's will.

John 18:11 "Jesus commanded Peter, 'Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”'"

 

[One Of The Elect]

Hello One of the Elect,

I am protestant and I think that we should treat others how we would like to be treated while on earth and remember those who have passed who can still inspire us in our own relationship with God.

I do not pray to my deceased relatives only to God the Father through the Son witnesses by the Holy Spirit. I think of them but do not talk to them.

I apologize for the confusion, Yes and also to the other post. I was responding to the deceased relative part of your post. It seems to be a common theme amongst Protestants to use as an argument against veneration. I am Non- denominational I do not agree with many of the teaching's of most denominations. I find they are lacking wisdom and tend to convey things in a manner that is self glorifying for the denomination. In so doing - separate and distinguish themselves from others. This leads to false interpretation and confusion for less mature minded people. And therefore comes division, not like mindedness. I believe they hold truth, but not all. I believe in searching out that truth and also exposing falsehoods . I believe Christianity is a journey and its history is non denominational. Denominations are those who seek dominance and control over people. They do this by misrepresenting Christian doctrine and vie amongst themselves for power. My denomination is the body of Christ. I am simply Christian. I was answering everyone's comments and replies. There is scriptural support for veneration. I said in my post- Veneration as per its meaning- not as denominations claim it and redefine it for themselves. As it is. There is scriptural support for it. This part of the response was for W2L. I hope I cleared that up? God Bless

 

[One Of The Elect]

Jesus taught us to pray to God, the Creator, not to the creation. That is why I do not pray to saints or Mary.



Why did Jesus correct Peter? Because Peter was trying to stand in the way of God's will.

John 18:11 "Jesus commanded Peter, 'Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”'"

Should we pray for each other? Do you ask those of your congregation to pray for you? Do you pray on behalf of another? You are of the Protestant movement and one of its sects. You speak as one without understanding? What do you consider yourself to be in the body of Christ?

 

[Phil 1:21]

Should we pray for each other? Do you ask those of your congregation to pray for you? Do you pray on behalf of another? You are of the Protestant movement and one of its sects. You speak as one without understanding? What do you consider yourself to be in the body of Christ?

Do I ask the guy next to me in church to pray for me? Perhaps. Do I build a statue of him, burn incense, bow down to it and rattle off 53 beads of "Hail Guy Next To Me At Church?" Nope.

 

[Aimz]

Thank you, yes.

I apologize for the confusion, Yes and also to the other post. I was responding to the deceased relative part of your post. It seems to be a common theme amongst Protestants to use as an argument against veneration. I am Non- denominational I do not agree with many of the teaching's of most denominations. I find they are lacking wisdom and tend to convey things in a manner that is self glorifying for the denomination. In so doing - separate and distinguish themselves from others. This leads to false interpretation and confusion for less mature minded people. And therefore comes division, not like mindedness. I believe they hold truth, but not all. I believe in searching out that truth and also exposing falsehoods . I believe Christianity is a journey and its history is non denominational. Denominations are those who seek dominance and control over people. They do this by misrepresenting Christian doctrine and vie amongst themselves for power. My denomination is the body of Christ. I am simply Christian. I was answering everyone's comments and replies. There is scriptural support for veneration. I said in my post- Veneration as per its meaning- not as denominations claim it and redefine it for themselves. As it is. There is scriptural support for it. This part of the response was for W2L. I hope I cleared that up? God Bless

 

[One Of The Elect]

I think most, not all of course, Protestants would not say that praying to a saint is a "sin" as you put, but rather that it is not necessary as we can talk straight to G-d directly. Further, we do not know that the saints, though alive in Heaven, can hear us when we pray. So, with that logic, why bother? That said, I agree, I have no problem asking a saint to "pray for xyz" as I might ask a friend to pray for me, and I did when I was Catholic. But we should still petition G-d directly, as we have learned from Yeshua/Jesus to do. Now I rarely petition the saints, but rather pray to G-d directly, but I have not problem with other people doing so....as long as the veneration does not stray to far towards worship.

Well not to sound condescending I'm sure they hear. You dial your phone to call a friend for support and they hear you. This statement of not being sure, sounds like you doubt heaven is a kingdom. The Lord Jesus wants us to be participants in the Kingdom of heaven. He gives us crowns and iron scepters and a place with Him upon His Father's throne. 1Thessalonians 5:11-13 speaks to this respectful love an adoration. And also to have respect for those who labor and are placed higher than others. I would say Mary and the apostles fit that bill. The glory is all Yeshua's for He is whom all glory comes. He gave the Saints their positions. They would not have them if they were disobedient. You should read this scriptural teaching if you have not. 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13. God Bless.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Do I ask the guy next to me in church to pray for me? Perhaps. Do I build a status of him, burn incense, bow down to it and rattle off 53 beads of "Hail Guy Next To Me At Church?" Nope.

Again, nothing in my post speaks to this. You are making a case for your Protestant beliefs against Catholic. Maybe you need to tell the Catholics how you feel. I am non denominational. And it is my understanding concerning your " Hail Guy" it is not just any guy the people are praying to. But the Mother of Christ who I will always defend because she is the Mother of Christ. Whether one agrees with the rosary or not. You Protestants are very disrespectful toward her. I will go no further than your church father John Calvin who teaches about the sins of Mary. You should read 1 Thessalonians 5: 11-13.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Jesus taught us to pray to God, the Creator, not to the creation. That is why I do not pray to saints or Mary.



Why did Jesus correct Peter? Because Peter was trying to stand in the way of God's will.

John 18:11 "Jesus commanded Peter, 'Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?”'"

Are you just joining the conversation? That is in my post is there something you are correcting in it?

 

[tampasteve]

Well not to sound condescending I'm sure they hear. You dial your phone to call a friend for support and they hear you. This statement of not being sure, sounds like you doubt heaven is a kingdom. The Lord Jesus wants us to be participants in the Kingdom of heaven. He gives us crowns and iron scepters and a place with Him upon His Father's throne. 1Thessalonians 5:11-13 speaks to this respectful love an adoration. And also to have respect for those who labor and are placed higher than others. I would say Mary and the apostles fit that bill. The glory is all Yeshua's for He is whom all glory comes. He gave the Saints their positions. They would not have them if they were disobedient. You should read this scriptural teaching if you have not. 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13. God Bless.

Not to sound obtuse, but how are you so sure they hear?

Your analogy is nice, but it still does not prove (or disprove) that they hear us. Please do not accuse me of doubting Heaven is a real place, nothing I said would really imply that. I simply said that we do not know that the saints hear our prayers, and we do not. We know that G-d hears our prayers and we know that Yeshua taught us to pray in both the Jewish tradition (as he would have prayed) which would have been to G-d the father alone and we have a direct prayer (the Lord's prayer) to reference as such.

Like I said, I do not doubt that the saints are living in Heaven, but I prefer to pray the way that I know is correct. But I would not fault anyone for praying to the saints if they feel it brings them spiritual comfort or help. I have read and just re-read 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13...it is a nice section, but I fail to see how it supports praying to saints no longer on this Earth.

 

[Phil 1:21]

You should read 1 Thessalonians 5: 11-13.

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or saints. Perhaps you could show us where Jesus instructed us to pray to anyone but God Almighty? Until then, I'll continue to follow His lead and disregard that of folks seeking to pray to the creation instead of the Creator.

You Protestants are very disrespectful toward her.

Oh pu-lease. The only thing I said was that I don't pray to her. Kindly spare me the hyperbole. Thanks.

 

[One Of The Elect]

Not to sound obtuse, but how are you so sure they hear?

Your analogy is nice, but it still does not prove (or disprove) that they hear us. Please do not accuse me of doubting Heaven is a real place, nothing I said would really imply that. I simply said that we do not know that the saints hear our prayers, and we do not. We know that G-d hears our prayers and we know that Yeshua taught us to pray in both the Jewish tradition (as he would have prayed) which would have been to G-d the father alone and we have a direct prayer (the Lord's prayer) to reference as such.

Like I said, I do not doubt that the saints are living in Heaven, but I prefer to pray the way that I know is correct. But I would not fault anyone for praying to the saints if they feel it brings them spiritual comfort or help. I have read and just re-read 1 Thessalonians 5:11-13...it is a nice section, but I fail to see how it supports praying to saints no longer on this Earth.

I am sure because Jesus said heaven is a kingdom. In the Lords prayer " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name , thy KINGDOM COME, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If heaven is a kingdom it has appointed persons through Christ that administer according to their gifts. And 1 Thessalonians speaks to those who are over others in their labor and work would the apostles constitute being over us ,they admonish us in spirit. They are not here in the flesh, but are in spirit - unless you do not believe they work from the spirit realm. They are in the Holy Spirit. Why then do we receive crowns and iron scepters and placements of rule if not to rule? It is obvious the rule is Christ' rule. It is by that, that anyone becomes a saint. My argument isn't about just going to God but, that it is not wrong to ask the saints to pray for us. They too are of the spirit of God. I believe it is our duty to acknowledge their rewards. All the glory is God's.
He desires our participation, otherwise why build a Kingdom. It is correct to pray to the Father and it is not incorrect to pray and ask the saints for help. They are over us and admonish us. Who do you think saint Paul is talking about when he speaks to those over us? 1Thessalonians 5? There is only one over them. Who is that? Who was the first to know? What is the crown over the woman of Rev12? It is a crown of twelve stars?

 

[One Of The Elect]

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or saints. Perhaps you could show us where Jesus instructed us to pray to anyone but God Almighty? Until then, I'll continue to follow His lead and disregard that of folks seeking to pray to the creation instead of the Creator.



Oh pu-lease. The only thing I said was that I don't pray to her. Kindly spare me the hyperbole. Thanks.

Read 1Thessalonians 5.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Read 1Thessalonians 5.

For the second time...

Nothing in there about praying to Mary, or saints. Perhaps you could show us where Jesus instructed us to pray to anyone but God Almighty? Until then, I'll continue to follow His lead and disregard that of folks seeking to pray to the creation instead of the Creator.

 

[tampasteve]

I am sure because Jesus said heaven is a kingdom. In the Lords prayer " Our Father who art in heaven hallowed be thy name , thy KINGDOM COME, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. If heaven is a kingdom it has appointed persons through Christ that administer according to their gifts. And 1 Thessalonians speaks to those who are over others in their labor and work would the apostles constitute being over us ,they admonish us in spirit. They are not here in the flesh, but are in spirit - unless you do not believe they work from the spirit realm. They are in the Holy Spirit. Why then do we receive crowns and iron scepters and placements of rule if not to rule? It is obvious the rule is Christ' rule. It is by that, that anyone becomes a saint. My argument isn't about just going to God but, that it is not wrong to ask the saints to pray for us. They too are of the spirit of God. I believe it is our duty to acknowledge their rewards. All the glory is God's.
He desires our participation, otherwise why build a Kingdom. It is correct to pray to the Father and it is not incorrect to pray and ask the saints for help. They are over us and admonish us. Who do you think saint Paul is talking about when he speaks to those over us? 1Thessalonians 5? There is only one over them. Who is that? Who was the first to know? What is the crown over the woman of Rev12? It is a crown of twelve stars?

Forgive me, but I think I just view the text differently. Yes, Heaven is a Kingdom. Yes, the father is King. That is quite clear, and I do not think most Christians would disagree.

However, I feel that you are interpreting 1 Thessalonians differently than I. I believe the author was speaking about living people being over the other living people, not saints that had passed away being over the living. I think that where you are interpreting 5:12...... and are over you in the Lord you are interpreting it as ruling from Heaven to Earth? If so I just do not interpret it that way, and honestly have never heard it interpreted as such to support this stance.

My argument isn't about just going to God but, that it is not wrong to ask the saints to pray for us. They too are of the spirit of God. I believe it is our duty to acknowledge their rewards. All the glory is God's.

Again, I repeat that I do not think it is wrong to pray to saints. I just think the evidence that they can hear us is not solid. Wrong? No. Right? Maybe. We just do not know.