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Venerating icons is optional (?)

handmaiden64

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Between all of the Orthodox blogs that are out today, as well as comments made by clergy or laypeople on social media, I become confused as to what the Church REALLY believes. Some sound like they hold a very strict view to venerating icons in their home or in the temple (not to sound judgemental, but almost to an obsession as part of their prayer rule and lifestyle), while others I have read have a view where such things (veneration) sound like they are not truly necessary to live an Orthodox life. I am not well read on the Church Fathers at all, so I am not familiar with what they would say on the matter.

I have heard more than once from clergy that you don't necessarily have to venerate icons to be Orthodox, especially in the context of a catechumen class with people who are looking into Orthodoxy who are Protestant; that the saints and the Theotokos direct us to Christ, but EVERYTHING about the faith is Christ and He is our only hope for salvation.

Would really like to discuss this.
 

~Anastasia~

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I don't want to say things in such a way as to create misunderstanding. But a couple of points come to mind.

If venerating icons were ESSENTIAL to salvation or being Orthodox, what would that say about those who lived under iconoclasm? They certainly lost some benefit, some part of the fullness, but it doesn't mean they were not Orthodox.

On the other hand, if a person doesn't want to venerate icons because they believe the Church to be in serious and complete error about a common practice ... well, that conviction that puts them in opposition to the Church can pretty much mean they are not really Orthodox. If I'm not mistaken, we must affirm the Councils and practices when being received, and this would be part of it.

On yet another hand (three hands, anyone? ) I think it's important to point out that we are encouraged to be honest with ourselves spiritually. If we have reservations about something, especially as a catechumen, there is no shame in that. In the case of many practices, we can even be received into the Church with some personal reservations of practice, yet we must have the mindset that the Church in her wisdom has her reasons and expect that it is our own understanding that lags behind. I know that God will bless honest seeking under such circumstances, and I've known priests to affirm such an attitude.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I'm also thinking about what someone might come off as being "obsessive" about venerating icons. Perhaps, to them, to fail to do so is a slight or a disrespect to the Saint whose icon is ignored? Maybe they are being a bit scrupulous not to be disrespectful?

With that said, we should never do certain things with icons, such as carry them in a back pocket, drop them and let them get dirty and leave them that way, or treat them very carelessly.

But I've been told by some people that they carefully venerate every icon before they pray, and I've wanted to ask (maybe I did) about things like the monk's cells I've seen that might have hundreds of tiny or paper icons. Or if the collection includes 5 icons of the same Saint, does that person feel obliged to venerate each one? (Insistence on venerating each of several icons of the same Saint scrupulously would seem to make the ICON itself the thing in the person's mind, and I'm cautious about that ... )
 
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Lukaris

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I think this is a matter of personal piety that a person must determine as the Holy Spirit moves you.

This is something to be encouraged but never forced; I would think.
 
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Constantine the Sinner

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Showing tremendous reverence to holy things was considered part of piety ever since the OT, even if it wasn't done through kissing. But now we have become the very children, the very sisters and brothers and mothers of God, so holy things are not simply fearful, but things to be loved because of their connection with God. I think if you're truly Orthodox you will naturally venerate icons, because your feelings toward God are so intense they need to find a physical outlet in things like tears and kisses. And the physical is an important expression of the spiritual.
 
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~Anastasia~

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By the way ... except for some trusted ones, I pretty much steer clear of Orthodox blogs. Though now if I'm looking for something I've found helpful articles - but if I had an actual question, I'd say a blog isn't a safe source, because it's basically what one person says, and what one person allows as far as comments. There is no guarantee or expectation of correction or oversight.

As for social media, I know I've said before that I have over the years built up a great group of trustworthy friends on FB (as well as a few I know to be skeptical of, but I don't unfriend them). But that took years of effort. Wading into "Facebook Orthodoxy" in general, or another Orthodox forum I used to post on, can put you in touch with people who speak as though they are greatly authoritative on the subject, but then I find later they are only catechumens, and sometimes under questionable teaching. You have to be VERY CAREFUL what you accept.

I've long turned to forums for advice on repairing appliances, diagnosing sick farm animals, identifying flora and fauna, legal issues, and all kinds of questions, because AS LONG AS you know the forum includes a wide basis of knowledgeable people, who might not even have the same philosophies, you can just about bet that errors posted by one will be corrected by another. I've found TAW to generally keep that safeguard (though now as an ambassador I greatly appreciate kindness and tact in the one correcting!) ... but generally speaking you have to be VERY careful where you get advice regarding Orthodoxy online.



And by the way, I should have said right up front, I'm discussing things from kind of a theoretical point of view, but if there is some actual problem, your priest would be the one to ask. Forgive me please for not saying that first, since it was the most important thing I possibly could have said.

(And if I had more space in my sig, I would add the warning that whatever I say is open to correction too ... and if needed, I hope and trust someone more knowledgeable will offer it )
 
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ArmyMatt

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it's personal because it should be done out of love for the saint. if someone feels close to a bunch of saints, they should venerate them. and if someone has a particular devotion to one saint, that is fine too.
 
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handmaiden64

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Anastasia,
I agree with the points you made, but this last one is more of what I was wondering about. If a Protestant is a catechumen but really struggles with an area of doctrine or practice, such as venerating icons, well I understand what you say about that they can be received into the Church even though they are honestly struggling and seeking for the Lord to open up truth to them in this area.

My concern is when one is sitting in on a talk/catechumen class geared toward those seeking Orthodoxy and the majority of those in attendance are Protestants (as was my experience) and one of the participants brings up the subject of venerating the saints and the Theotokos through the use of icons, the priest's response seems to downplay the actual doctrine of the Church by making a statement that you don't necessarily have to venerate icons to be Orthodox. Now, I'm sure that the priest is hoping that, over time, after the catechumen is received into the Church and he/she strives to live an Orthodox life, that the Holy Spirit will work on their heart on this matter. Forgive me, because I don't intend to be judgemental against one of God's annointed and I'm confident that clergy seek wisdom from God when a catechumen comes upon a stumbling block that they seem stuck on as to how to counsel and direct them. To me, though, making a statement that seemed to downplay a point of practice seemed to come across as not being totally truthful and it concerned me and, in thinking it over, I started to come up with all sorts of questions on this matter and confusion set in for me.

Forgive me, a sinner.
 
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~Anastasia~

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I understand wanting to explore it more fully. Sometimes it takes asking questions to dig into the nuances. That's why I was kind of all over the place with my replies, trying to find the thing you needed to explore.

I understand too. I was told within very short order by two different priests that it was not a requirement for Orthodox to ask intercession of the Saints, and I didn't even ask that question directly (though that kind of question was part of my wide base of questions at that point). But the fact that they both brought it up, and in the same kind of statement, has stuck with me these several years.

And in a sense, I would question the answer. While it is not strictly required, how many of the prayers and hymns of the Church would have to be skipped, in that case?

So I will say that I understand it is a valid question, trying to step to your side on a similar issue. I hope that makes sense.


Venerating icons, btw, I think is even less an issue than asking intercession (because intercessions are direct or implied in our prayers and hymns). But I suppose it's possible to enter or leave a Church without venerating icons. I'm not sure if people would notice. (I do see people leave without doing it, but there's a bit of a "traffic jam" at leaving that only happens then ... I imagine they venerate them when they enter, but no one polices that.)

Anyway. I'm not sure if I'm in a position to give much more in the way of an answer, but hopefully we've gotten the question.

I do think it's the heart again that matters. In our parish, many of the icons are out of reach to be venerated. But I have looked at certain ones, thought about their lives and example, felt great honor and love for them. In a sense, the heart, I think, can "venerate" even if the body doesn't. That actually means more, I would say, than if someone perhaps passed by an icon and kissed it out of habit without a thought of the one it depicted. Not that we can know anyone's heart, but just to say the actual act of veneration could possibly mean nothing. (Having experienced all of these ways, including carelessness a time or two, I confess, the full benefit is found in actually being able to physically venerate the icon while also allowing the spiritual reality to touch the heart, so that is of course the fullness we hope for.)

Just as prayer (speaking and asking) somehow sometimes implies "worship" to Protestants, so can kissing somehow imply worship to them sometimes, and it can be near-impossible for them to see kissing an icon as anything other than worshipping an idol (though it might help to have them consider what kissing a Bible or a photo of an absent loved one means). But while they are in that mindset, if the priest insisted they MUST venerate the icon, they would be violating their conscience - they would in a sense actually BE worshipping idols - and surely no priest would ever want to put any person in that position.

I think I'll stop there. Those are some of the thoughts I have so far.

Excellent question, IMO.
 
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ArmyMatt

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I think it is often phrased like that because the Protestant knee jerk is if I need to venerate icons. of course the answer is no, we don't do it because of a need, we do it out of love for God. once someone sees it is done out of love, why wouldn't you do it?
 
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peregrinus2017

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Disclaimer: I am not yet Orthodox, and I come from an irreverent and terribly independent cultural framework. I am also a very emotionally flat person, emotional expression and awareness just doesn't occur to me without significant effort.

Having said that, I do have some difficulty in understanding what is actually meant by venerating an icon. It does seem to involve a lot of bowing and kissing, which is fine I guess, if it's an outward expression of love and appreciation for the one depicted.

Anyway, I have been experimenting (though I don't think that is quite the right word), spending time with and praying with different icons of our Lord Jesus. Some I find compelling, some comforting, some unsettling but in a good way, and a few that I didn't really like. The main thing I have realized through this practice is how little I know Him, and how much I want to know Him.

One of the things in the Orthodox church that is inspiring to me is the understanding that the saints that have gone on before are not separated from the church that is still here. I can ask them to pray for me, and I can even have a relationship with them in Christ.

I feel like I'm rambling, if so sorry. What I think I was wanting to say is that icons are optional like fasting is optional. They are ways through which we can more fully experience the grace of God when utilized with a proper attitude.

Please feel free to correct me or direct me to a fuller understanding on anything I say.
 
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Lukaris

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I think we need to understand the role of icons within the church. How much one extends this to their piety is their situation. While I understand people asking if it is "optional", I hesitate to address that particular term. The reason I hesitate on "optional" is that I tend to think it is discouraging; icon veneration is to be encouraged but never forced as I stated earlier ( I would believe).
 
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~Anastasia~

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Hello peregrinus2017, and welcome to CF and to TAW!

Your explanation helps make sense of how you are approaching the whole question. I think it's a great reminder that we are all different, and have our own unique journey that we take in coming to God.

I can relate to the "experimenting" ... that's how I approached several questions, and I also learned that the different icons interact with us in different ways. To me, in a way, it sometimes seemed like different facets of Christ. What totally fascinated me is that sometimes the same icon can have a different "tone" at different times.

The outward expressions made much more sense to me personally when I came to see the people (Greeks in my case) used the same demonstrations with each other. My dear elderly Nouna kissing MY hand (something Greeks often do with their grandparents) had great impact.

We are really glad to have you join us. Please let us know if you need any help navigating the forums or have any questions.

Again, welcome, and God be with you!

 
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ArmyMatt

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I think you nailed it
 
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The importance of the veneration of icons in spiritual life must not be underestimated. For this reason it is good if the faithful come to understand how to do it properly and why it is so important. But only the Holy Spirit can teach one these things by bestowing the gift of humility. Thus, unwavering repentance must be undertaken for one to become truly human (Orthodox) in this particular regard, or any, for that matter.
 
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FenderTL5

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You have a pretty good understanding.
When I was in catechism our priest gave multiple illustrations to to help explain what is meant. One example went something like this:
Orthodox practice historically and culturally includes bows and kisses. It's the way you meet/greet those you love on earth and show honor towards them. It is then no different when 'greeting' those in the church triumphant when we gather for services. They are present with us - so stop and honor their presence.
 
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handmaiden64

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Welcome, peregrinus2017!! Thank you for sharing from the heart the journey you have been on.
 
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peregrinus2017

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Hello peregrinus2017, and welcome to CF and to TAW!

Thank you for the welcome. I have looked around the forums a fair bit and to be honest there are not many other places I want to go. One question though. Is there an area within TAW that is set up for introduction threads, or is this the place.
 
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handmaiden64

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Everyone,
I got little a-ha moments after reading your individual insights. This clarified so much for me. Pray for me that I my heart will be transformed so that, out of love, I will better honor those saints that have gone before us and Panagia as they bring me closer to Christ.
 
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