Venerate

livingword26 · Jun 23, 2007

While we all pat ourselves on our backs for our wisdom, knowledge and education, I will leave this thread with but one question. A question to ask yourself, not to answer here. Do you know Jesus Christ.

Mat 7:21-23
(21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
(22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
(23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

lionroar0 · Jun 23, 2007

Those that know Jesus know His family.

Peace

lionroar0 · Jun 23, 2007

1. Prayers for the dead 300 A.D.
2. Sign of the Cross 310 A.D.
3. Wax votive candles 320 A.D.
4. Veneration of saints and angels375 A.D.
5. Mary declared "Mother of God" 431 A.D.
6. Priests begin to wear vestments 500 A.D.
7. Worship in Latin 600 A.D.
8. Temporal power of Papacy granted by Phocas 610 A.D.
9. Feast days in honour of Mary 650 A.D.
10. Kissing of the Pope's feet 709 A.D.
11. Temporal power of Papacy confirmed 750 A.D.
12. Adoration of Mary, saints, images and relics
legalised by 2nd Council of Nicea 788 A.D.
13. Holy water 850 A.D.
14. Veneration of St. Joseph 890 A.D.
15. Baptism of bells 965 A.D.
16. Canonization of dead saints 995 A.D.
17. Fasting on Fridays and Lent 998 A.D.
18. Rosary beads 1090 A.D.
19. Pope Boniface VII decrees celibacy of priests 1097 A.D.
20. Inquisition of heretics 1184 A.D.
21. Sale of Indulgences 1190 A.D.
22. Transubstantiation of the wafer 1215 A.D.
23. Confession to a priest 1215 A.D.
24. Adoration of the host (Wafer God) 1220 A.D.
25. Bible forbidden and placed on index of forbidden books --
by Council of Valencia 1229 A.D.
26. Red hats for Cardinals 1245 A.D.
27. Feast of Corpus Christi 1264 A.D.
28. The Miraculous scapular 1287 A.D.
29. Roman church as the only true church 1303 A.D.
30. Cup forbidden to laity at Communion 1415 A.D.
31. Purgatory decreed by Council of Florence 1439 A.D.
32. Doctrine of the seven sacraments 1439 A.D.
33. Tradition of equal authority to the Bible 1545 A.D.
34. Justification by works and not faith alone 1545 A.D.
35. Creed of Pope Plus IV makes all the unscriptural
doctrines of Council of Trent binding 1560 A.D.
36. Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary 1854 A.D.
37. Papal infallibility 1870 A.D.
38. Papal decree on mixed marriages -- all marriages not
celebrated by a Roman priest declared null and void 1908 A.D.
39. Pope reaffirms Mary as Mother of God 1931 A.D.
40. Assumption of the Virgin Mary 1950 A.D.

Click to expand...

I know this list. It't the Boetner list. NOthing to it.

http://www.christianforums.com/t922262-the-boettner-list-fact-or-fiction.html

Peace

IamAdopted · Jun 23, 2007

lionroar0 said:
Those that know Jesus know His family.

Peace

I only Know Jesus but I read what James and Jude wrote..

Kepha · Jun 23, 2007

I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

I would like to add something here. The 'Offspring' of the Woman in that verse was Jesus. It was not speaking about all those who are in the Body of Christ but was talking about Him only. So since it speaks of the same Enmity given between He and Satan which I'm sure we can all agree here that Jesus 'Always' was against satan, then it is the same that was put between the Woman(Mary) and the Devil and not one who would Sin now and then as we have with Eve or even the followers of Christ later on down the road.

CathNancy · Jun 23, 2007

Kepha said:
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

I would like to add something here. The 'Offspring' of the Woman in that verse was Jesus. It was not speaking about all those who are in the Body of Christ but was talking about Him only. So since it speaks of the same Enmity given between He and Satan which I'm sure we can all agree here that Jesus 'Always' was against satan, then it is the same that was put between the Woman(Mary) and the Devil and not one who would Sin now and then as we have with Eve or even the followers of Christ later on down the road.

Yes!!!

PaladinValer · Jun 23, 2007

livingword26 said:
While we all pat ourselves on our backs for our wisdom, knowledge and education, I will leave this thread with but one question. A question to ask yourself, not to answer here. Do you know Jesus Christ.

So, if you cannot successfuly counter our arguments, you question our faith and Christianity? Don't answer it here, think about it yourself.

I know my faith and my Christianity is true, devout, firm, and productive. For you to have the utter audacity to question it because you cannot successfully counter the argument of orthodoxy is extremely disappointing, offensive, and persecutory. Please retract.

lionroar0 said:
Those that know Jesus know His family.

Peace

And with your spirit.

Kepha said:
I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and hers; He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel."

I would like to add something here. The 'Offspring' of the Woman in that verse was Jesus. It was not speaking about all those who are in the Body of Christ but was talking about Him only. So since it speaks of the same Enmity given between He and Satan which I'm sure we can all agree here that Jesus 'Always' was against satan, then it is the same that was put between the Woman(Mary) and the Devil and not one who would Sin now and then as we have with Eve or even the followers of Christ later on down the road.

Rick Otto · Jun 24, 2007

from the Catholic Herald:
"So did Mary die first before being assumed? Did she fall "asleep"? Was she buried? The Church does not bind us to a particular answer because the tradition is not clear. In an apocryphal collection of stories called Transitus Mariae (The Passage of Mary), attributed to Bishop St. Melito of Sardis (d. c. 200), Mary died in the presence of the apostles in Jerusalem, and then depending on the story, her body just disappeared, or was buried and then disappeared.
St. John Damascene (d. 749) also recorded an interesting story concerning the Assumption: "St. Juvenal, Bishop of Jerusalem, at the Council of Chalcedon (451), made known to the Emperor Marcian and Pulcheria, who wished to possess the body of the Mother of God, that Mary died in the presence of all the Apostles, but that her tomb, when opened, upon the request of St. Thomas, was found empty; wherefrom the Apostles concluded that the body was taken up to heaven."
These stories, however, must not take precedence over the theological grounding for our belief in the Assumption of our Blessed Mother. Rather, we must remember that the Patristic Fathers defended the Assumption on two counts: Since Mary was sinless and a perpetual virgin, she could not suffer bodily deterioration, the result of original sin, after her death. Also, if Mary bore Christ and played an intimate role as His mother in the redemption of man, then she must likewise share body and soul in His resurrection and glorification."

Mary wasn't sinless, a perpetual virgin, or assumed bodily into heaven, except in vain imaginations.

Being the earthly mother of Jesus is not "playing an intimate role in man's salvation". It is playing an intimate role in the life of mankind's savior - two entirely different roles. Not reason enough for her to "share body & soul" in glory that belongs soley to Him.
Disappointing, persecutive offensiveness has an utter audacity of its own in the way it denies sound reutation, and is apparently un-selfconcious about irony.

Axion · Jun 24, 2007

Rick Otto said:
Mary wasn't sinless, a perpetual virgin, or assumed bodily into heaven, except in vain imaginations.

Your opinion. The historic Church says differently. Mary's Assumption is one of the oldest dated festivals of the Christian Church (August 15th) and is held across all the ancient Apostolic Churches. Even the dates of Easter and Christmas may be argued over between churches, but not the Assumption. Similarly no-one has ever claimed bodily relics of the Virgin Mary - although relics of all other Saints have been venerated in profusion. This is quite simply because the bodily assumption was so widely known and believed by the early Christians that no claim to hold a relic of Mary was credible.

The translation of Elijah and Enoch into Heaven is certainly documented for us in Scripture. Christ's ascension into Heaven is certainly documented for us in Scripture. So why the great difficulty in accepting the assumption of Jesus's mother Mary?

It's not recorded in the bible, you may say. But asa protestant source has said, that Moses' body was raised, appears from his presence with Elijah and Jesus (who were in the body) at the Transfiguration: the sample and earnest of the coming resurrection kingdom. Thus in each dispensation a sample and pledge of the future resurrection was given: Enoch in the patriarchal dispensation, Moses in the Levitical, Elijah in the prophetical.

The pledge in the current dispensation is Mary.

Being the earthly mother of Jesus is not "playing an intimate role in man's salvation". It is playing an intimate role in the life of mankind's savior - two entirely different roles. Not reason enough for her to "share body & soul" in glory that belongs soley to Him.

Mary is Mother of Jesus - nor just "earthly mother" unless you disbelieve in the incarnation. Similarly Mary's role was important because of her CHOICE to obey God and do His will - as opposed to Eve.

Rick Otto · Jun 24, 2007

"This is quite simply because the bodily assumption was so widely known and believed by the early Christians that no claim to hold a relic of Mary was credible."

Not "known" - assumed.
You edit freely with your own opinion..

"The translation of Elijah and Enoch into Heaven is certainly documented for us in Scripture. Christ's ascension into Heaven is certainly documented for us in Scripture. So why the great difficulty in accepting the assumption of Jesus's mother Mary?"
Why accept & believe in what is not clearly documented by scripture?

The incarnation is what made Mary the "earthly mother" of Jesus. Mary's role isn't important because of her obedience, it is possible because of her obedience.
It is important because God determined it to be in Genesis.

PaladinValer · Jun 24, 2007

Praise God for the Ascension and Dormition of St. Mary the Theotokos!

jckstraw72 · Jun 24, 2007

Why accept & believe in what is not clearly documented by scripture?

Click to expand...

bc the Scripture is not, and does not claim to be the only source of truth. Truth is a person, not wholly contained in a book.

IamAdopted · Jun 24, 2007

jckstraw72 said:
bc the Scripture is not, and does not claim to be the only source of truth. Truth is a person, not wholly contained in a book.

Where do you get this from? Jesus said that Gods word was truth and prayed for the Father to sanctify us in this.

PaladinValer · Jun 24, 2007

God's Word is Jesus, not the Bible.

Kepha · Jun 24, 2007

IaA seems to continue to have that problem. Everytime she hears a verse saying God's Word, she thinks immediately that it means in written form only forgetting that His Word also meant what He preached to His Apostles and later on what they preached to the early Church after Pentecost (oral). The Written form came later and of course I'm excluding the Old Testament when I say this.

PaladinValer · Jun 24, 2007

Kepha said:
IaA seems to continue to have that problem. Everytime she hears a verse saying God's Word, she thinks immediately that it means in written form only forgetting that His Word also meant what He preached to His Apostles and later on what they preached to the early Church after Pentecost (oral).

Agreed for the most part. To me, despite its divine inspiration and authority in matters of faith, doctrine, and salvation, I do not call the Holy Canon "the Word." To me, it is a title that belongs to Jesus the Christ only.

Oh, and not all the Fathers was oral. We do, after all, have all those wonderful patristical writings don't forget!

The Written form came later and of course I'm excluding the Old Testament when I say this.

And all of that wasn't even Canonized until just after the Holy Synod of Constantinople I at that!

Kepha · Jun 24, 2007

PaladinValer said:
Agreed for the most part. To me, despite its divine inspiration and authority in matters of faith, doctrine, and salvation, I do not call the Holy Canon "the Word." To me, it is a title that belongs to Jesus the Christ only.

Oh, and not all the Fathers was oral. We do, after all, have all those wonderful patristical writings don't forget!

And all of that wasn't even Canonized until just after the Holy Synod of Constantinople I at that!

Yes. I definitely agree the Word was first and foremost Jesus as the fullness of Him is being brought forth though not just the Written only.

IamAdopted · Jun 24, 2007

Well it would seem that if Jesus was speaking of Himself He would have said so. But He wasn't. Scripture would have read much differently. Father Sanctify them in your truth. I am your truth.. But no it reads
Joh 17:16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
It lines us with This
Eph 5:26 so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,

and this
Rev 1:2 who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.

PaladinValer · Jun 24, 2007

Ever heard of referring to yourself in the second person?

IamAdopted · Jun 24, 2007

PaladinValer said:
Ever heard of referring to yourself in the second person?

LOL.. Ever heard of speaking truth? For Jesus didn't have any deception in Him. So He would have spoken plainly.

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