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Venerate frustation with Catholics

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stivvy

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So now your calling me a "non-believer"?
What do you mean by "non-believer"?
You think all people who don't believe in Catholic doctrine of Mary are non-Christian?
This is very dangerous thinking. I hope you do not think this way about me or this way at all.
Since when does anything having to do with Mary affect whether I am saved by the grace of God or not?
Mary doesn't affect who is saved and who isn't, whether you accept this tradition or not. It is by the grace of God that we are saved, by God's mercy and grace which he has given upon us.
Oh please...sooooo dramatic.

Those that do not recognize being part of the complete family of God, which includes His mother, the Saints, the angels and allof us. Those that do not recognize their place in that family of God and respect the great fathers and mothers of the church and question everything that history and scripture spells out for us. Those who deny Jesus the Chist's One True Faith teachings. These are unbelievers in the complete message.

They want salvation without applying Jesus' laws and commandments. They want their reward and inheritance of the Father without being an active member of the family so they go off on their own and live amoungst the harlots of men and women who preach a false salvation. They eat from their trofts. But it is only when they come back to their Father's family, the One True Faith, that they will find the true salvation.

So why is it dangerous, will the protester church police hunt me down? No. I speak the truth and light of Jesus and His message not watered down so the weak can swallow it. It is the full, unabridged message of the complete church.

Sorry if you can't handle it. Your loss, not mine.
 
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stivvy

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Prove me wrong with the word of God and not with the traditions of men.
You would have to come to the One True Faith in order to see the whole lesson plan son. The church is of the scripture and the traditions and actions of the One True Faith are of the Holy Ghost and nothing less.

The scripture is not torn to pieces and fed piece by piece, but as a whole truth. You sola scripturists think a quote here and there are all you need, well you are wrong and that was never the intension of any writings to be quoted out of context.
 
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RMDY

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Oh please...sooooo dramatic.

Those that do not recognize being part of the complete family of God, which includes His mother, the Saints, the angels and allof us. Those that do not recognize their place in that family of God and respect the great fathers and mothers of the church and question everything that history and scripture spells out for us. Those who deny Jesus the Chist's One True Faith teachings. These are unbelievers in the complete message.
They want salvation without applying Jesus' laws and commandments. They want their reward and inheritance of the Father without being an active member of the family so they go off on their own and live amoungst the harlots of men and women who preach a false salvation. They eat from their trofts. But it is only when they come back to their Father's family, the One True Faith, that they will find the true salvation.

So why is it dangerous, will the protester church police hunt me down? No. I speak the truth and light of Jesus and His message not watered down so the weak can swallow it. It is the full, unabridged message of the complete church.

Sorry if you can't handle it. Your loss, not mine.

You preach that I am a heretic because I don't accept your tradition about Mary. So now accepting Mary according to your traditions of men affects my salvation?

Whether I accept Mary according to your traditions, or not, does not affect my salvation. That is not what the apostles taught, and that is not what Christ taught.

So why is it dangerous, will the protester church police hunt me down? No. I speak the truth and light of Jesus and His message not watered down so the weak can swallow it. It is the full, unabridged message of the complete church.
I have told you why I certain doctrines about Mary and you accuse me of not being a christian because I don't believe the same thing as you do about Mary. Not once have I ever accused you or not being my brother in Christ? I just come and say I don't believe the same thing as you and give my reasons.

We both believe in Christ crucified.
We both believe that Christ is God in-the-flesh
We both believe in following the commandments of Jesus.

So what more is there? Jesus taught to love others as you would love yourself and to love God with all your mind, heart, body, and soul. Jesus taught to flee from many things, including immorality.
The apostles taught us to follow the law of liberty.

Now, your telling me, I am not your christian brother, although I believe in those same things as you do about Christ, I am not your christian brother because I do not believe Mary is what you believe her to be?
 
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RMDY

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You would have to come to the One True Faith in order to see the whole lesson plan son. The church is of the scripture and the traditions and actions of the One True Faith are of the Holy Ghost and nothing less.

The scripture is not torn to pieces and fed piece by piece, but as a whole truth. You sola scripturists think a quote here and there are all you need, well you are wrong and that was never the intension of any writings to be quoted out of context.

Sola Scriptura? I give you what Scripture says, not what traditions of men say. Am I tearing Scripture up? What am I tearing up? That Mary was without sin? That she was the ark of the covenant? The likes of these things?

We are led by the Holy Spirit, and you insult me by saying I cannot interpret Scripture despite having the Holy Spirit to help interpret it for me. I am not relying solemnly on myself to interpret it, but Jesus that lives with in me.
 
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anawim

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Mary had favor from God. She had grace within her, because Messiah was within her. There is nothing she did to deserve it.

To say Mary was incorruptable is to preach to me a different gospel that I have heard of.

In reply to all of you about the footnotes, I read the KJV off of the internet, so forgive me for not having the "proper" translation according to you.

ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ

Luke 1:28


ΚΑΙ [SIZE=-1]1) and, also, even, indeed, but [/SIZE]

ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ [SIZE=-1]1) to go out or come in: to enter 1a) of men or animals, as into a house or a city 1b) of Satan taking possession of the body of a person 1c) of things: as food, that enters into the eater's mouth 2) metaph. 2a) of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment 2a1) to arise, come into existence, begin to be 2a2) of men, to come before the public 2a3) to come into life 2b) of thoughts that come into the mind[/SIZE]

ΠΡΟΣ [SIZE=-1]1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with, with regard to [/SIZE]

ΑΥΤΗΝ[SIZE=-1] 1) himself, herself, itself, themselves [/SIZE]

ΕΙΠΕΝ [SIZE=-1]1) to say, to speak 1a) affirm over, maintain 1b) to teach 1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct 1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say 1e) to call by name, to call, name 1f) to speak out, speak of, mention [/SIZE]

ΧΑΙΡΕ [SIZE=-1]1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute [/SIZE]

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ [SIZE=-1]1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings [/SIZE]

Ο [SIZE=-1]1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.[/SIZE]

ΚΥΡΙΟΣ [SIZE=-1]1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord 1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing 1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master 1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor 1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master 1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah For Synonyms see entry 5830 [/SIZE]

ΜΕΤΑ [SIZE=-1]1) with, after, behind[/SIZE]

ΣΥ[SIZE=-1] 1) you[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]Greekbible.com[/SIZE]


[SIZE=-1]Now, here we have a Greek translation: [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]And [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to enter [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]with regard to [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]himself, herself, itself, themselves [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to call by name [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to make graceful 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]that [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]this title is given to: God, the Messiah [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]with [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]you.[/SIZE]





[SIZE=-1]It appears the angel is greeting her [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]like how people"at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting", but with grace, which is favor. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]If you read Luke 1:30, it says that God found favor with Mary.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Mary was given a promise by God, through his Angel, that she would have a child, just as Sarah was promised by God that she would receive a child with her husband Abraham. Both had God's favor for them. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1]What is grace? Grace is a gift from God![/SIZE]

"More broadly, divine grace refers to God's gifts to humankind, including life, creation, and salvation. More narrowly but more commonly, grace describes the means by which humans are saved from original sin and granted salvation. Grace is often distinguished from mercy in that mercy is seen as not receiving punishment that one deserves to receive, whereas grace is receiving a positive benefit that one does not deserve to receive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace

Mary does not give grace or give it to anyone. She received grace from God like you or I, but especially because she was promised to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

But her grace is the same as yours and mine, but she was greatly blessed because of it. She, just you and I, received the promised Messiah, which was God's grace upon us, through His New Covenant.

Did you read my post: http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=37777199&postcount=24

She was perfected in grace. Not the same as you and I. We are not perfect.
 
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RMDY

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Did you read my post: http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=37777199&postcount=24

She was perfected in grace. Not the same as you and I. We are not perfect.

Neither is Mary perfect either. Only God is perfect.

The original Greek uses the word kecharitomene. The root word is charis, which does mean grace. It is a part of speech which is a past, perfect participle. It is a received action; something that happened in the past; it happened perfectly; and it is ongoing to the present, with no sign of ending. So Mary received perfect grace, that was not going to end.

Those translations above do not do the word justice.

This kind of grace does not make Mary perfect. Her fleshly body is not perfect, but sinful. She hadn't even received the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. No one is good and perfect except God alone.
 
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ps139

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John - I don't think anyone's calling you a non-Christian. I certainly consider you a brother in Christ. (I hardly know you, but you've given a statement of your faith).

But, a tip of advice - coming in here and accusing us of following "traditions of man" isn't going to work. We believe in the traditions of the apostles. We believe Protestants follow too many traditions of Luther, Calvin, etc.

We have good reasons for believing what we believe. If you listen, they might even make sense.
 
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stivvy

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You preach that I am a heretic because I don't accept your tradition about Mary. So now accepting Mary according to your traditions of men affects my salvation?

Whether I accept Mary according to your traditions, or not, does not affect my salvation. That is not what the apostles taught, and that is now what Christ taught.

This is what I mean, you don't understand the whole picture. Salvation isn't about one thing or another, it is aout understanding the bigger picture and accepting all that Jesus speaks of and taught us. Only one of the things is to love and respect His mother as He did. But there is sooo much more than just that. That is why the One True Faith is so complex to so many, because you have to have the faith of a child to go through it all and allow it to surround you with Jesus the Christ's message and fullness.

I have told you why I certain doctrines about Mary and you accuse me of not being a christian because I don't believe the same thing as you do about Mary. Not once have I ever accused you or not being my brother in Christ? I just come and say I don't believe the same thing as you and give my reasons.

We both believe in Christ crucified.
We both believe that Christ is God in-the-flesh
We both believe in following the commandments of Jesus.

So what more is there? Jesus taught to love others as you would love yourself and to love God with all your mind, heart, body, and soul. Jesus taught to flee from many things, including immorality.
The apostles taught us to follow the law of liberty.

Now, your telling me, I am not your christian brother, although I believe in those same things as you do about Christ, I am not your christian brother because I do not believe Mary is what you believe her to be?

I never said you were not a Christian. But I do believe you are taking yourself outside the true family of God. Mnay who protest the One True Faith are lost brothers and sisters and we only pray they come to their senses and come back to the Mother Church that many of their ancestors left and then had children that do not know better so they protest as you do.

You ask "So what more is there?". Well let me quote one thing Jesus says and that is:

Matthew 7:21
" Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:22
" Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
 
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RMDY

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John - I don't think anyone's calling you a non-Christian. I certainly consider you a brother in Christ. (I hardly know you, but you've given a statement of your faith).

But, a tip of advice - coming in here and accusing us of following "traditions of man" isn't going to work. We believe in the traditions of the apostles. We believe Protestants follow too many traditions of Luther, Calvin, etc.

We have good reasons for believing what we believe. If you listen, they might even make sense.

I didn't accuse. Several of you told me not to rely on "Sol Scriptura" and they relied on a Catholic doctrine when speaking to me.
 
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RMDY

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This is what I mean, you don't understand the whole picture. Salvation isn't about one thing or another, it is aout understanding the bigger picture and accepting all that Jesus speaks of and taught us. Only one of the things is to love and respect His mother as He did. But there is sooo much more than just that. That is why the One True Faith is so complex to so many, because you have to have the faith of a child to go through it all and allow it to surround you with Jesus the Christ's message and fullness.



I never said you were not a Christian. But I do believe you are taking yourself outside the true family of God. Mnay who protest the One True Faith are lost brothers and sisters and we only pray they come to their senses and come back to the Mother Church that many of their ancestors left and then had children that do not know better so they protest as you do.

You ask "So what more is there?". Well let me quote one thing Jesus says and that is:

Matthew 7:21
" Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matthew 7:22
" Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'

It is the body of christians that make up the church of Christ, not whether it is a Protestant or a Catholic church.
"by one Spirit we are all baptized into one body."
1 Cor. l2:l3

Since believers have been united with Christ through spiritual baptism, they are sometimes corporately referred to as the body of Christ. (Rom. l2:4-5; 1 Cor. l2:11,13,l8,27; Col. l:l8; Eph. 5:30) The idea seems to be that the group of Christians in the world constitute the physical representation of Christ on earth. It is also a metaphor which demonstrates the interdependence of members in the church, while at the same time demonstrating their diversity from one another. (Rom. 12:4; 1 Cor. 12:14-17).

I don't support being divided between groups such as "Catholic/Protestant/lutheran/baptist/ calvanist/ ect" because Scriptures teach us to not be divided into factions, ect.
Notice that I chose not to have a specific denomination symbol in my profile?
I believe all Christians make up Christ's church as we are all the body of Christ. But each of us has different....traditions we follow....which aren't always good...depending on how Scripture is viewed. Some of us view Mary differently than others. But it doesn't affect salvation whether you believe Mary is the mother of God or not.

Christ is the judge here and I am just giving what I personally believe. I feel Mary shouldn't be a focus in ones relationship and friendship with God. That is all what christianity is....

....is a relationship between you and God, nothing more than that, except inscribing the law of love and liberty within our hearts and follow Christ and keeping his commandments because we love him and are led by the Spirit.

You shouldn't......warn me that I won't be saved.....by mentioning to me Matthew 7:22.
What is the will of the Father?
Depends on how the Holy Spirit leads you. Were all forgiven sinners. None is better than the other.
There is no such thing as a "Mother Church"
And I don't believe Protestants and Catholics are any better than the other. I just believe personally, that its all about Christ, and no one else: not mary, not saints, not angels, not anything. Its all about King Jesus, our God, our Saviour.

The One True Faith is Jesus Christ, that he is our Lord and Saviour, that he died for our sins, that Jesus came in the flesh. Everything else we follow is based on the law of liberty: loving God and loving others. All the law hangs on those two commandments. I won't elaborate on those two things.

Am I wrong to come to your forum to tell you all what I believe? Maybe I am. If I am. I am sorry....


Sorry that I didn't act in the loving way I should have.
I should have read your forum rules and not posted in here and respect you all. But I didn't. I sinned in this way against you all, and can you all forgive me for it?

I have said what I believe and I shouldn't be posting in the Catholic-only section anyway.




 
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RMDY

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Hypothetical question here - not in regards to Mary ... Can anyone other than God be perfect? Is it theoretically possible?

Didn't Jesus teach us that only God was good?
Didn't Paul teach us that all our fleshly bodies are sinful?

Put it this way:

God can be in you yet you can still sin.
You can be a temple of God yet still be a sinner.
 
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Carrye

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Didn't Jesus teach us that only God was good?

But what did he mean by that? Did he mean that if only God is good, then everyone else is evil? Did he mean that the man who said that shouldn't be using gratuitous titles? Did he mean that as an indication of his divinity? Did he mean that goodness should not be attributed to anyone/anything except God?

Didn't Paul teach us that all our fleshly bodies are sinful?

Could you show me where he said that? Where he said that every fleshly body (and therefore every human being) is sinful?

Also, could you answer my earlier question directly? Can anyone other than God be perfect? Is it possible? Impossible?
 
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NewMan99

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Hypothetical question here - not in regards to Mary ... Can anyone other than God be perfect? Is it theoretically possible?

I can name you two: Adam and Eve before the fall.

That being said, it does not necessarily follow that they were divine or perfected in the same sense that we are perfected in Christ. But - for a period of time - they were without sin or flaw.
 
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NewMan99

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I didn't accuse. Several of you told me not to rely on "Sol Scriptura" and they relied on a Catholic doctrine when speaking to me.

You need to understand that Catholic doctrine relies on Sacred Scripture as a necessary foundation of our beliefs. It is just that we also rely on the memory of the Church as to how those Scriptures are to be interpreted. And we call this Sacred Tradition as it is also Apostolic in nature...the "traditions" we remember are not mere "traditions of men" - but rather Apostolic teaching Traditions.

That is why St. Paul told us in 1Cor 11:2 to "hold fast to traditions I handed on to you" and in 2Thess 2:15 he likewise said to "hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter", and later on he said in 2Thess 3:6 to "shun those acting not according to tradition." Sure, there are traditions of men, but there are also "traditions" by which we are called to remember the teachings of the Apostles.

And I will submit that you do this yourself, even though you are not aware of it.

When we rely upon "sola Scriptura" without remembering how Christianity has ALWAYS interpretted certain things, that is when we Christians (both you and me) can get into trouble.

For example, I'm sure no one will disagree if I say that all Christians consider the words of Isaiah, in which he proclaims "the virgin shall be with child and bear a Son and He shall be called Emmanuel," to be a prophetic reference to the Virgin Birth. Is this not so?

Yet, the Jews point out that the word "virgin" only appears in the Greek translation of Isaiah (as found in the Septuagint). In the original Hebrew, however, it does not read "virgin" at all, but rather "the ***maiden*** shall be with child." ...And the Jews attempt to use this as a "proof" against the Christian understanding of the prophecy.

So, are the Jews right?


Should we abandon the Christian understanding of Isaiah, despite what it says in Matt 1:23? Or, rather, is it not more likely that the Greek is correct? ...That is to say, that the Greek captured the intended meaning of Isaiah's original Hebrew statement.

For example, a maiden (an unmarried woman) IS a virgin. ....Or she ***better well be***, given the morality of ancient Israelite society. :) Therefore, the original Hebrew statement is referring to a virginal, unmarried woman (a righteous maiden) who is also mysteriously with child. This was Isaiah's intended meaning.

He was not speaking of a fornicator (a maiden who is pregnant outside of wedlock), but of a virtuous maiden who is pregnant without the loss of righteousness. And this nuance of the Traditional meaning was preserved in the Greek translation, whereas it was left intentionally ambiguous in the original Hebrew --allowing the Hebrew readers to discern the nuance for themselves.

Well, returning to Luke 1:28, we see exactly the same thing. Here, as with the prophecy of Isaiah, we are faced with a term (i.e., “kecharitomenae") which can have both a simple, secular meaning OR a more sacred and profound one --a meaning which is only apparent through the nuance of Sacred Tradition.


As in the case of Isaiah's prophecy appearing in the Greek of Matt 1:23, if we do not retain our accepted nuance in Isaiah's Herbrew statement, then we must conclude that Matt 1:23 is wrong; and that the entire Gospel is thereby rendered uninspired. :) So, what is it to be? Should we value such Traditional nuances in the language of Sacred Scripture or shouldn't we? Is the Traditional intention (and our forefathers'understanding of that intention) as important as the words themselves, or is it (as some Protestants think) all up for grabs? ...Depending on how I personally choose to understand the Sacred
Text. :)

Clearly (for Catholics and Eastern Orthodox), it is the former. We must understand the language of the Scriptures as our forefathers did. And, thus Sacred Tradition is preserved.


Hope that helps.

God's Peace,

NewMan


 
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NewMan99

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Building off of my last post...

But, what of this Sacred Tradition in regard to Luke 1:23? How did our forefathers understand the term "kecharitomenae"?

Well, ... Turning to St. Jerome, in forming his approved Latin version of the Bible (the Vulgate), chose to translated the Greek "kechaitomenae" as "gratia plena" --that is, "full of grace." Here, like the superlative past-perfect tense in the Greek, the Latin word "plena" (from which we get our English word "plenty") assumes an abundance or overflowing of grace.

Yet, could it be that St. Jerome was wrong?

Like the authors of the Greek Septuagint and Matthew's Gospel, could it be that Jerome merely mistranslated the word? Could it be that he didn't understand the Greek? Could it be that he erred in a situation where any first-year Greek student would have known better?

St. Jerome knew Greek **very** well. In fact, he was one of the finest Greek and Hebrew scholars to ever live. Furthermore, let us not forget that St. Jerome, while born a Westerner (and barely a Westerner, since he was not a Roman but an Illyrian from Dalmatia), spent most of his life in the East. There, he was not only active in Constantinople itself (as well as in Antioch and Palestine), but was also a VERY close friend and associate with St. Gregory Nazianzus --with whom he lived for 3 YEARS. And, St. Gregory, don't forget, was the best friend of St. Basil the Great, the older brother of St. Gregory of Nyssa. So, this is the kind of company that St. Jerome kept. :)

Now, ... I ask you, ... In spending all this time with St. Gregory Nazianzus (to say nothing of his time spent in the monasteries of Syria and Palestine), what language do you suppose St. Jerome was speaking?

Koinic Greek, was it not? ...The SAME language the New Testament is written in, right?

So, one cannot seriously tell me that St. Jerome didn't know the difference between "kecharitomenae" and "pleres charitos". Nobody can tell me that he was less informed (and less immersed)than modern Greek scholars are today...ESPECIALLY given the fact that Koinic Greek was a LIVING LANGUAGE for Jerome --a living language that was part of the every-day culture in which he spent most of his life.

Furthermore, one cannot seriously tell me that St. Jerome was not privy to the Traditional meaning of "kecharitomenae" as Luke 1:28 was understood by the Christians of his day. Nobody can say that St. Jerome was unexposed to the direct and organic understanding of the Greek Church.

Well, ... As for me, I'll trust the understanding of St. Jerome and his contemporaries over the translators of the King James Bible, and the other modern era Bible translations. St. Jerome was a 4th Century Christian who was directly exposed ...not only to Koinic Greek as a living language ...but to the Traditional nuances in the Apostolic Church's understanding of the Scriptural record. He lived, and breathed, and worshipped in the Apostolic Faith --a member of the Church founded by the Apostles. Who are the 17th Century translators of the King James Bible compared to this? Who are these 20th Century scholars (who are far from native speakers of Koinic Greek or members of the Apostolic city-churches) who claim that it's "highly favored one" and not "full of grace" (or "perfectly graced")? Let them stand where Jerome stood, and I'll accept their translation over his.

Yet, many modern non-Catholics value the witness of modern day scholars over 4th Century orthodox Greco-Romans who were immersed more deeply in the Church's memory.

God's Peace,

NewMan
 
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stivvy

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Jesus telling us that "Only God is Good" is not an accurate use of the scripture. Again, this is taking His words out of context. In context, He was acknowledging the young rich man's knowledge of Him being God. It was His way of saying "See, you believe I am God. So what I say to you next will hold water."

Thank you for displaying my evidence that sola scripture is never a good basis for arguement.
 
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anawim

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Neither is Mary perfect either. Only God is perfect.



This kind of grace does not make Mary perfect. Her fleshly body is not perfect, but sinful. She hadn't even received the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. No one is good and perfect except God alone.

MOD HAT

JohnChapter14

I would like to remind you that there is no debating allowed in OBOB. Ask polite questions, but no debating.
 
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