• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Venerate frustation with Catholics

Status
Not open for further replies.

isshinwhat

Pro Deo et Patria
Apr 12, 2002
8,338
624
Visit site
✟13,555.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds :p

Take a long hard look at what each Hail Mary begins with and you may begin to see where our love of the Rosary comes from. Of all the passages of Scripture which could have been chosen, the Hail Mary begins with Gabriel's greeting to Mary. Those words which we pray are the very words which announced the Incarnation and our Salvation. "Hail full of Grace, the Lord is with thee..." What more beautiful an episode can one imagine than the scene begun with those words... The conception of the Christ child in the womb of Mary, and the beginning of the Redemption of Man... Next the greeting of Elizabeth, the first public proclimation of the power of God come to us in Christ, "Blessed art thou among women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus..." "Who am I that the Mother of my Lord should come to me?" Then, the baby John leaping in her womb filled with joy and the Holy Spirit...

You can read the words and believe that they focus on Mary, or you can pray the prayer and see the magnificance of God in the Incarnation and its extension into and effect upon all of mankind. I pray you do the latter...

God Bless,

Neal
 
Upvote 0

WarriorAngel

I close my eyes and see you smile
Site Supporter
Apr 11, 2005
73,951
10,060
United States Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟597,590.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
Luke 1 28 And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

And the modern versions are different. Highly favored and such are not what the originals say.
 
Upvote 0

kepha31

Regular Member
Jun 15, 2007
1,819
595
73
✟51,939.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
In Relationship
I know a lot of you love Mary and I am not saying you can't! But when Catholism starts to.....center things around Mary quite a bit, doesn't it concern any of you?
Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds :p
What about the 20 Hail Jesus's we need to do :p
I see many Catholics showing pictures of a baby Jesus in the arms of an adult Mary.....
I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?
Marian devotion
 
Upvote 0

anawim

Senior Veteran
Aug 24, 2004
3,105
183
71
NY suburbs
Visit site
✟27,465.00
Faith
Catholic
Politics
US-Republican
This doesn't say Mary is full of grace but:

1) highly favoured
2) The Lord is with her
3) Blessed among women

The original Greek uses the word kecharitomene. The root word is charis, which does mean grace. It is a part of speech which is a past, perfect participle. It is a received action; something that happened in the past; it happened perfectly; and it is ongoing to the present, with no sign of ending. So Mary received perfect grace, that was not going to end.

Those translations above do not do the word justice.
 
Upvote 0

Carrye

Weisenheimer
Aug 30, 2003
14,064
731
✟36,702.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
The original Greek uses the word kecharitomene. The root word is charis, which does mean grace. It is a part of speech which is a past, perfect participle. It is a received action; something that happened in the past; it happened perfectly; and it is ongoing to the present, with no sign of ending. So Mary received perfect grace, that was not going to end.

So would an English translation of that be "having been filled with grace" ???
 
Upvote 0

WarriorAngel

I close my eyes and see you smile
Site Supporter
Apr 11, 2005
73,951
10,060
United States Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟597,590.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Private
I know a lot of you love Mary and I am not saying you can't! But when Catholism starts to.....center things around Mary quite a bit, doesn't it concern any of you?
Where are the only-Jesus-rosary beeds :p
What about the 20 Hail Jesus's we need to do :p
I see many Catholics showing pictures of a baby Jesus in the arms of an adult Mary.....
I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?

I think man, who has imperfect relationships are more concerned with this than the Lord.
In fact, the Lord has always been unafraid of His Mother and in fact desires that we share His love for Her.

But we do not put her above our Lord.
WWJD?
He loves Her, and so we love her.
He honored her in life and obeyed her, we honor her in our lives, and through obedience of the Lord, we are given His perfect Mother to bring us to Him.

She escorts us to her Son.
AS She said in Cana...'DO whatever He tells you...'

perhaps. That is why I came to ask some questions here to see if its true.

[/size]

In person, I haven't gotten into a discussion about Catholicism except with my mother, who isn't exactly a devoted Catholic. Before I was a christian, she'd tell me to pray to saints, and I almost did. But when I began to read the bible and go to church, I didn't understand this and found no reason to believe this. And then I go on the internet to research about this and come across some very...very...venerating websites that almost put Mary on a level equal to God. That is why I came directly into this forum asking some questions, but I appologize if I offended anyone here.

[/size]

I'm not exactly concerned about whether you call her mother of God or not, because I understand the way your thinking. But to any christian or anyone else who does not understand this then it does not sound right.
I actually haven't been thinking much over this title but am rather disturbed more if someone bows down to a statue of Mary and prayers to her sort-of-thing than a catholic who has a strong admiration for her. reverence. I am not saying this is what Catholics do. I don't know one Catholic in real life who do this, but what I am disturbed about is if the pope and other priests are promoting something of the likes (bowing to statues of Mary and praying in from of the statues believing Mary will intercede for them).



Either way, to people who do not understand what you are explaining, it would come across in this way:

or that Mary is somehow equal or above God.
That is why it offends some people. But I understand what you are trying to say. I am not exactly disturbed by that.


But you know, there are some people who take things too far....venerate things too far....misinterpret Scripture too far....

such things have existed in the church even shortly after the days of Pentecost (notable Ephesians, Galatians, Corinthians)

One church had a problem with mixing Jewish Torah with God's gift of grace, another had a problem with Angel worship, and so forth.
Another had a problem with bei

Look at Revelation.
I dont think ppl see that book for what it is.

Ever notice closely that the second coming had not yet been fufilled in Revelation?
And the last days come last...?
And everything in between is an example of what is going on right now?

Ever notice that the Saints that are before the throne of God and offering up prayers...is in Heavenly real time?

And did you know that means Saints are still praying?

For what?

Clearly the love manifested within them still causes them to pray for us on earth out of concern. [The cloud of witnesses]

Hebrews 12
1 And therefore we also having so great a cloud of witnesses over our head, laying aside every weight and sin which surrounds us, let us run by patience to the fight proposed to us:

Otherwise; why would they pray? Bowing down before the altar offering up prayers?

Apocalypse 5
8 And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints:

Apocalypse 8
3 And another angel came, and stood before the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar, which is before the throne of God.

Apocalypse 8
4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.

Apocalypse 11
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest render reward to thy servants the prophets and the saints, and to them that fear thy name, little and great, and shouldest destroy them who have corrupted the earth.



Apocalypse 13
10 He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Apocalypse 14
12 Here is the patience of the saints, who keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Apocalypse 16
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. [Eucharist]


How come not even man in Heaven can open the book of life?
Apparently they know what goes on, on earth.

Think about it.
YOU can also hit the verses and read the whole verse in context.:wave:
 
Upvote 0
R

Renton405

Guest
lol props:thumbsup:

THat is so true.. after mass around maybe 1% of the people go there to pray to rosary. Mary isn't really brought up during Mass, it is all about Christ and his sacrifice..

The reason why protestants always talk about Mary is to take jabbs at the church. They will use anything to attack the CC, even Jesus's Mother..In my opinion, using Jesus's Mother as a fullcrum to attack the church is pretty low and disrespectful to Christ. Some even equate Mary to a pagan idol! In my opinion they will have to answer for that when they die for such utter disrespect for Christ's Human Mother.... Rememer Jesus gave everything to us from him...
 
Upvote 0

japhy

Melius servire volo
Jun 13, 2006
405
32
43
Princeton, NJ, USA
Visit site
✟15,714.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So would an English translation of that be "having been filled with grace" ???
Not only does it mean that, but it means that state of being filled with grace is continuing into the future.

Also, it is almost as if "kecharitomene" is not just an adjective applied to Mary, but a new name given her by God.
 
Upvote 0

japhy

Melius servire volo
Jun 13, 2006
405
32
43
Princeton, NJ, USA
Visit site
✟15,714.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
I get the impression that many people seem to be more for a relationship with Mary more than a relationship with Jesus, although believing that Jesus is higher than Mary.....you know....the belief that that Mary will intercede for them?
No relationship with Mary can ever take the place of or supersede a relationship with Jesus Christ. However, if we know Jesus, and we know his Father, why should we not also know his mother?

As for intercession, there is absolutely nothing wrong with asking our fellow brethren in Christ to pray for us; Paul wrote about it in his letters, and asked other churches to pray for him. Now, if the LORD is the God of the living, and nothing -- not even death -- can separate us from the love of Christ, the love of God in Christ (cf. Rom 8:35-39), then why should we hesitate to ask those who have died in Christ (and are therefore truly at rest in him) to pray for us? Why wouldn't they gladly pray for us to God? They are "so great a cloud of witnesses" (Heb 12:1) we have, cheering us on in this race.
But why is the Rosary even necessary? Why did it even have to be introduced in the first place?
It is not necessary; it is optional. But it does help people draw closer to Jesus.

I am curious what you consider "necessary" or "extra".
Before I was a christian, she'd tell me to pray to saints, and I almost did.
"To pray" means, simply, "to ask". Prayer to God is, of course, a very different thing from praying to Mary or other saints, because it is God who provides the answers to our prayer, and God alone who makes manifest in our lives the answers. If I ask Mary for assistance, she can only provide because it is God who works through her. Mary is not special because she's Mary, she's special because God chose her to be the mother of Jesus Christ, the Word made flesh, the Son of God: true God, and true Man. She has been infused with grace like none of us can imagine.

Therefore, if I pray to Mary, I know she will never tell me anything other than this, referring to her Son, as she did at the wedding feast in Cana: "Do whatever he tells you." (John 2:5)
I'm not exactly concerned about whether you call her mother of God or not, because I understand the way your thinking. But to any christian or anyone else who does not understand this then it does not sound right.
Then the problem is improper catechesis, improper teaching. Someone who doesn't understand the title "Mother of God" goes and tells other people their flawed understanding, and that spreads. If only people would go the source to get their information, they would not learn incorrectly.
(bowing to statues of Mary and praying in from of the statues believing Mary will intercede for them).
We are not "bowing to" the statue, we are bowing in front of a statue, to Mary. It might sound like I'm splitting hairs but I'm not. (However, I will not deny that we bow to the tabernacle where the Blessed Sacrament is reserved.)

But again, we absolutely hope Mary will intercede for us.
 
Upvote 0

RMDY

1 John 1:9
Apr 8, 2007
1,531
136
41
Richmond
Visit site
✟25,946.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
She is FULL of grace. Not just given lots of graces, but FULL of grace. That mean nothing corruptable or "non-grace" was within her soul or body.

Wrong. She was given the same grace as you and I have been given by God, but more blessed because of it.
 
Upvote 0

RMDY

1 John 1:9
Apr 8, 2007
1,531
136
41
Richmond
Visit site
✟25,946.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
She is FULL of grace. Not just given lots of graces, but FULL of grace. That mean nothing corruptable or "non-grace" was within her soul or body.

Mary had favor from God. She had grace within her, because Messiah was within her. There is nothing she did to deserve it.

To say Mary was incorruptable is to preach to me a different gospel that I have heard of.

In reply to all of you about the footnotes, I read the KJV off of the internet, so forgive me for not having the "proper" translation according to you.

ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ

Luke 1:28


ΚΑΙ [SIZE=-1]1) and, also, even, indeed, but [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]

[/SIZE]ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ [SIZE=-1]1) to go out or come in: to enter 1a) of men or animals, as into a house or a city 1b) of Satan taking possession of the body of a person 1c) of things: as food, that enters into the eater's mouth 2) metaph. 2a) of entrance into any condition, state of things, society, employment 2a1) to arise, come into existence, begin to be 2a2) of men, to come before the public 2a3) to come into life 2b) of thoughts that come into the mind

[/SIZE]ΠΡΟΣ [SIZE=-1]1) to the advantage of 2) at, near, by 3) to, towards, with, with regard to

[/SIZE]ΑΥΤΗΝ[SIZE=-1] 1) himself, herself, itself, themselves

[/SIZE]ΕΙΠΕΝ [SIZE=-1]1) to say, to speak 1a) affirm over, maintain 1b) to teach 1c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct 1d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say 1e) to call by name, to call, name 1f) to speak out, speak of, mention

[/SIZE]ΧΑΙΡΕ [SIZE=-1]1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute

[/SIZE] ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ [SIZE=-1]1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

[/SIZE]Ο [SIZE=-1]1) the 2) this, that, these, etc.

[/SIZE]ΚΥΡΙΟΣ [SIZE=-1]1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord 1a) the possessor and disposer of a thing 1a1) the owner; one who has control of the person, the master 1a2) in the state: the sovereign, prince, chief, the Roman emperor 1b) is a title of honour expressive of respect and reverence, with which servants greet their master 1c) this title is given to: God, the Messiah For Synonyms see entry 5830

[/SIZE]ΜΕΤΑ [SIZE=-1]1) with, after, behind

[/SIZE]ΣΥ[SIZE=-1] 1) you

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]Greekbible.com
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]
Now, here we have a Greek translation:

[/SIZE][SIZE=-1]And [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to enter [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]with regard to [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]himself, herself, itself, themselves [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to call by name [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]to make graceful 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]that [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]this title is given to: God, the Messiah [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]with [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]you.





It appears the angel is greeting her [/SIZE][SIZE=-1]like how people"at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting", but with grace, which is favor.

If you read Luke 1:30, it says that God found favor with Mary.
Mary was given a promise by God, through his Angel, that she would have a child, just as Sarah was promised by God that she would receive a child with her husband Abraham. Both had God's favor for them.

What is grace? Grace is a gift from God!

[/SIZE] "More broadly, divine grace refers to God's gifts to humankind, including life, creation, and salvation. More narrowly but more commonly, grace describes the means by which humans are saved from original sin and granted salvation. Grace is often distinguished from mercy in that mercy is seen as not receiving punishment that one deserves to receive, whereas grace is receiving a positive benefit that one does not deserve to receive."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace

Mary does not give grace or give it to anyone. She received grace from God like you or I, but especially because she was promised to be with child through the Holy Spirit.

But her grace is the same as yours and mine, but she was greatly blessed because of it. She, just you and I, received the promised Messiah, which was God's grace upon us, through His New Covenant.
 
Upvote 0

stivvy

Senior Veteran
Jun 30, 2006
4,275
446
53
Hubbard, Ohio
✟29,264.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Republican
Wrong. She was given the same grace as you and I have been given by God, but more blessed because of it.
No, you are wrong and you heard wrong and taught wrong and are preaching wrong and are wrong for not being respectful to the Theotokos and her place.

Funny how non-believers have to come in here and fight to try and prove that the Mother of God should not be respected as we do. They try sooooo hard to give her a bad name and tear her down. I am sure Jesus can't be happy about how people are treating His Mom. Be ready to answer to Him for it.
 
Upvote 0

RMDY

1 John 1:9
Apr 8, 2007
1,531
136
41
Richmond
Visit site
✟25,946.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
No, you are wrong and you heard wrong and taught wrong and are preaching wrong and are wrong for not being respectful to the Theotokos and her place.

Funny how non-believers have to come in here and fight to try and prove that the Mother of God should not be respected as we do. They try sooooo hard to give her a bad name and tear her down. I am sure Jesus can't be happy about how people are treating His Mom. Be ready to answer to Him for it.

So now your calling me a "non-believer"?
What do you mean by "non-believer"?
You think all people who don't believe in Catholic doctrine of Mary are non-Christian?
This is very dangerous thinking. I hope you do not think this way about me or this way at all.
Since when does anything having to do with Mary affect whether I am saved by the grace of God or not?
Mary doesn't affect who is saved and who isn't, whether you accept this tradition or not. It is by the grace of God that we are saved, by God's mercy and grace which he has given upon us.
 
Upvote 0

RMDY

1 John 1:9
Apr 8, 2007
1,531
136
41
Richmond
Visit site
✟25,946.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
CA-Conservatives
No, you are wrong and you heard wrong and taught wrong and are preaching wrong and are wrong for not being respectful to the Theotokos and her place.

Prove me wrong with the word of God and not with the traditions of men.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.