Venerable Fulton J. Sheen

[concretecamper]

How about the first 5 issues?


Thank you.


Pax


- Josiah







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1. Luther wasn't a heretic.....really?
2. I never claimed these opinions violated SS
3. Are you serious? You can be a heretic by rejecting just 1 rennet of faith
4. No clue what you are trying to spin here. Evidently you are trying too hard
5. I never claimed the opinions I listed were held as dogma by him

You starting to stretch things....just pack it up and move on.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

1. Luther wasn't a heretic.....really?

You stated he was. "the biggest heretic of all time." Now document that.

I never claimed these opinions violated SS

Review what you stated. " This make crystal clear the errors of SS.

You can be a heretic by rejecting just 1 rennet of faith

You quoted "the biggest heretic of all time" to defend some Marian opinions..... how does this coming from one you accused of being such a terrible HERETIC give support to these Marian views.

5. I never claimed the opinions I listed were held as dogma by him

... and yet STATUS is often the problem, not pious opinions.

just pack it up and move on.

Easy to abandon what you so powerfully and dogmatically stated.... but I suggest you either retract or confirm them.





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[Metal Minister]

With all the bashing of the Blessed Mother by many Protestants

Support this accusation or retract it.

Just realized this was never addressed....

 

[concretecamper]

Easy to abandon what you so powerfully and dogmatically stated.... but I suggest you either retract or confirm them.
.

I can't make up my own dogma....do you think I'm protestant?

 

[Metal Minister]

I can't make up my own dogma....do you think I'm protestant?

Do you think this horrific misrepresentation is factual?

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Do you think this horrific misrepresentation is factual?

Perhaps the RCC is the only denomination that can make up its own dogma (insists it itself for it itself)? Curious to have a Catholic, from a denomination in doctrinal unity with none and that declares dogma itself for itself, seeming to rebuke what her own denomination does.... but.... moving on.....

But back to all the accusations made toward Protestants..... Including that Luther is "the worst heretic in history" etc., etc.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Just realized this was never addressed....

see post 22, as well. Lots isn't getting addressed....

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

I can't make up my own dogma....do you think I'm protestant?

You stated ""the biggest heretic of all time."

Now document that. Or retract and apologize. (Of course, if truth is irrelevant to you, just say so - we'll remember that you welcome flaming personal remarking to just fly because it doesn't matter to you if such is true or not).

So, who makes dogma for the RC Denomination if not itself? The declaration in 1870 declaring as dogma the INFALLIBILITY of the Roman Pontiff? Was that the United Methodist Church that made that? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Or was it just the Catholic Church declaring it itself in 1870? Ever heard the proverb, "Those in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks?"

Now, back to what you posted.....


See post 22




.

 

[concretecamper]

You stated ""the biggest heretic of all time."

Now document that. Or retract and apologize. (Of course, if truth is irrelevant to you, just say so - we'll remember that you welcome flaming personal remarking to just fly because it doesn't matter to you if such is true or not).

So, who makes dogma for the RC Denomination if not itself? The declaration in 1870 declaring as dogma the INFALLIBILITY of the Roman Pontiff? Was that the United Methodist Church that made that? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints? Or was it just the Catholic Church declaring it itself in 1870? Ever heard the proverb, "Those in glass houses shouldn't throw rocks?"

Now, back to what you posted.....


See post 22




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Truth is VERY relevant to me.....that is why I am Roman Catholic! Praise Jesus!

Running around in circles....not relevant to me at all. You may have the last word.

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Truth is VERY relevant to me....

GOOD! Then since you posted, as fact, as truth, that Martin Luther was perhaps "the biggest heretic of all time" you will now document it as the truth. Or admit you can't, apologize and retract it. Or perhaps truth actually isn't relevant to you.

See post 22.





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[topcare]

If what you say is true, then why does every single English translation of the Catholic Bible translate all four passages in the three synoptic gospels which state that Jesus had brother and sisters, as being "brothers and sisters" and not some other relationship? It seems to me that Catholic translators of your Bible who have received the imprimatur of the Catholic church ought to know what these words actually mean, don't you think?

BTW, I would never accuse your translators as being guilty of "silly Sola Scriptura nonensense."

Not my Bible, I am not Catholic

 

[bbbbbbb]

Not my Bible, I am not Catholic

No problem. The Orthodox translations are also entirely consistent in translating these passages as "brothers and sisters" and not anything else. Please check it out for yourself. In fact, there is not a single translation in the English language that differs at all in this matter.

 

[topcare]

Not Orthodox either. Doesn't really matter, your still relying on an English translation with your modern idea of what the word is suppose to mean. To properly understand you must let go of your modern ideas and stop placing them upon Scripture

 

[Metal Minister]

Not Orthodox either. Doesn't really matter, your still relying on an English translation with your modern idea of what the word is suppose to mean. To properly understand you must let go of your modern ideas and stop placing them upon Scripture

So what you're saying here is that we should rip the word adelphos out of its new testament context, so that the words brother or sister in Matthew 12:46-50 should instead read as "cousin" or "close kinsmen"? Even though there is zero usage like this anywhere in the new testament? Let's try it shall we?

[bless and do not curse]While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and [cousins] were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your [cousins] are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My [cousins]?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My [cousins]![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My [cousin] and [cousin] and mother.”

Hmmm well that didn't work....let's try another!


[bless and do not curse]While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and [close kinsmen] were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your [close kinsmen] are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My [close kinsmen]?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My [close kinsmen]![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My [close kinsmen] and [close kinsmen] and mother.”


Hmmmm...yeah I think I like the proper translation better. You know the one that pretty much every Greek scholar agrees is correct:
[bless and do not curse]

While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

 

[bbbbbbb]

So what you're saying here is that we should rip the word adelphos out of its new testament context, so that the words brother or sister in Matthew 12:46-50 should instead read as "cousin" or "close kinsmen"? Even though there is zero usage like this anywhere in the new testament? Let's try it shall we?

[bless and do not curse]While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and [cousins] were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your [cousins] are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My [cousins]?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My [cousins]![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My [cousin] and [cousin] and mother.”

Hmmm well that didn't work....let's try another!


[bless and do not curse]While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and [close kinsmen] were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your [close kinsmen] are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My [close kinsmen]?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My [close kinsmen]![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My [close kinsmen] and [close kinsmen] and mother.”


Hmmmm...yeah I think I like the proper translation better. You know the one that pretty much every Greek scholar agrees is correct:
[bless and do not curse]

While He was still speaking to the crowds, behold, His mother and brothers were standing outside, seeking to speak to Him.[bless and do not curse]Someone said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are standing outside seeking to speak to You.”[bless and do not curse]But Jesus answered the one who was telling Him and said, “Who is My mother and who are My brothers?”[bless and do not curse]And stretching out His hand toward His disciples, He said, “Behold My mother and My brothers![bless and do not curse]For whoever does the will of My Father who is in heaven, he is My brother and sister and mother.”

I think that is precisely why every translation of the Bible uses brother (and sisters). In passages like this anything else would simply be absurd.

 

[barryatlake]

If you non-Catholics would know the correct correlation of reading the Bible in its correct entire context perhaps you would then be able to comprehend Holy Scripture as it was intended to be understood.

In the above verse [ Matt. 12: 46 - 50 ] along with this verse of Mark 3: 31 are both saying that: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of His heavenly Father belongs to His true family

 

[CaliforniaJosiah]

Not Orthodox either. Doesn't really matter, your still relying on an English translation with your modern idea of what the word is suppose to mean. To properly understand you must let go of your modern ideas and stop placing them upon Scripture

IMO, it is good to practice exegesis, not eisegesis. Thus, what matters are the words on the page. When we IMPOSE a thought - then demand that such is "right there in phantom, invisible words none can see because they aren't there BUT, BUT God meant to put them there (just forgot)" or "Okay, the words don't say this but MY opinion is such is IMPLIED" are just ways of confirming that Scripture is being disrespected, the words matter little, and that one is simply asserting the opinions and theories of self above Scripture, above God - who are being forced to agree with self "if only by the IMPLICATION of that I'M insisting isn't said."



I'm waiting for all the points of post 18 to be addressed....



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[bbbbbbb]

If you non-Catholics would know the correct correlation of reading the Bible in its correct entire context perhaps you would then be able to comprehend Holy Scripture as it was intended to be understood.

In the above verse [ Matt. 12: 46 - 50 ] along with this verse of Mark 3: 31 are both saying that: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of His heavenly Father belongs to His true family

Why is it that Catholics address monks and nuns as "brother" and "sister" and not as "cousin" or "kinsman" or "kinswoman"?

 

[Metal Minister]

If you non-Catholics would know the correct correlation of reading the Bible in its correct entire context perhaps you would then be able to comprehend Holy Scripture as it was intended to be understood.

In the above verse [ Matt. 12: 46 - 50 ] along with this verse of Mark 3: 31 are both saying that: natural kinship with Jesus counts for nothing; only one who does the will of His heavenly Father belongs to His true family

Which no one is denying. Strawman much? We are pointing out that to change the word from brother/sister to the idea of cousin/close kinsmen, makes hash of the grammar and makes the verse ridiculous.