Vatican II and Trent

AvilaSurfer said:

Non-Catholics arguing about Catholic councils is going from amusing to annoying.

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But Markie is not arguing.

He simply sees what appears to be an about-face.

Charles in Ky said:

And following the council, the novus ordo Mass, sometimes referred to the new Mass or the Pauline Mass, opened the door to an innumerable Novelties and liturgical abuses.

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I understand your point. And I wouldn't want to split hairs over nothing.

But the fact is that liturgical abuses happened under the old form of the Mass as well. I've spoken to old timers who recount attending 15 minute, bare-bone Masses even on Sundays because the priests had skipped everything they were permitted to skip, and probably also a few things they were not permitted to skip.

I don't see the problem here as an issue of one form of the Mass being problematic while the other is perfect. Rather, the attitude of the priests offering the Mass appears to be the common denominator with all these abuses and whatnot.

thecolorsblend said:

I understand your point. And I wouldn't want to split hairs over nothing.

But the fact is that liturgical abuses happened under the old form of the Mass as well. I've spoken to old timers who recount attending 15 minute, bare-bone Masses even on Sundays because the priests had skipped everything they were permitted to skip, and probably also a few things they were not permitted to skip.

I don't see the problem here as an issue of one form of the Mass being problematic while the other is perfect. Rather, the attitude of the priests offering the Mass appears to be the common denominator with all these abuses and whatnot.

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15 minutes ?

Omitting what a priest is allowed to omit is not a liturgical abuse. Without knowing the specifics about these 15-minute Masses, there's nothing to discuss really.

I'll just leave this here..

"
I began serving the “old Mass” as an altar boy in 1927. I am now 88 years old, 62 years as a priest. As a lad, knowing the perfect recitations of all the Latin Mass responses, I dealt with priests of every age and devotion and I do not recall any who deliberately mumbled their prayers. The churches were not air-conditioned in those days and in the hot summer days it was not uncommon to omit the sermon; Low Mass might last for only 20 minutes, and Communions were much fewer in those days. Now with the Novus Ordo, I have attended Mass in 10 minutes. A possible scandal.

The only scandal I can recall in the old days was people sleeping during the sermon. Nobody complained about the Eucharistic fast from midnight; nobody complained about Communion on the tongue or about the Latin. In fact, we were proud of the Latin we knew. Non-Catholics marveled at the piety and the reverence of the congregation and the head-coverings of the women. Those were the glory days of the Church when our Catholic faith was a family thing, a treasure we prized. Our faith was so much a part of our life that it colored our moods, shaped our social activities, influenced our style of dress, and flavored our conversation. How many families can make the same claim today?

Last Sunday I experienced what perhaps was the greatest joy of my priesthood. I could scarcely contain myself. Indeed, my cup runneth over. I celebrated the Tridentine Latin Mass with a congregation of two hundred people. It was like a repetition of my First Holy Mass 56 years ago. It was a Missa Cantata — those sacred Gregorian melodies so fitting for worship: the solemn Trinity Preface, the solemn Pater Noster, the Holy Gospel, and the Orations.

My daily vernacular Mass has been a joy in my life, but there was always something about this Tridentine Latin Mass that went beyond all telling. I’ve found something that I had lost some 35 years ago. All those years my heart ached for the Latin Mass that I had lost, always hoping that some day, please God, I would find it. Last Sunday I found it. And like the widow of the Gospel who found her lost coin and who called in her neighbors to rejoice with her, now I was the one who wanted to call in the whole world to share in my joy. It was like being away from home all these years and always hoping that some day the permission for me would arrive to return home and share again with my dear ones the joys of long ago. It was home sweet home again. My joy knows no bounds.

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky "

New Oxford Review

Charles in Ky said:

My humble and ineffable thanks to our good Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, the Good Shepherd who went out looking for all those abandoned sheep to lead us back home again — to Rome, sweet home.

Would I go back to the new Mass? No way!

Rev. Charles Schoenbaechler, C.R.
Louisville, Kentucky "

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Again, it isn't a matter of there being a problem with one form of the Mass or the other. For whatever it's worth, my preference is for the TLM. I was welcomed into the Church by a priest from FSSP and attended the TLM as often as possible because I prefer that form.

In America today, the TLM is the choice for committed faithful and committed clergy. Comparing liturgical abuses of the Extraordinary Form to the Ordinary Form will always be lopsided and, if I may, unfair.

I can't compare a liturgical abuse at an EF form to one at an OF.

I've never witnessed a liturgical abuse at an EF.

But I do understand what you're saying. As far as being fair, I feel that laity are Justified in pointing out liturgical abuses they witness at an OF though.

I do want to make it clear that I attend to both forms of the Mass.

Charles in Ky said:

But Markie is not arguing.

He simply sees what appears to be an about-face.

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Thank you for this! That's what I see, yes. I entered the Church just recently, and once inside it was not what I read about. Almost the only active group was the Charismatics, and what they were doing was not "orthodox". I talked to one priest, and he pretty much said he steers clear of it, but the bishop allows it - Lord only knows why.

You can tell who the "orthodox" Catholics are and who are not, and it seems everyone gets to do what they want these days. And I'm a newbie.

I have been looking at Orthodoxy now, as all the off the wall stuff in the Catholic Church has me wondering. But I really don't want to leave!

Markie Boy said:

Thanks - I won't elaborate on that, but you are correct, it goes on from there. Trent and Vatican II contradict each other enough that both can not be true.

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It is true that the council of Trent and the 'spirit' of Vatican II are different things. I'm not seeing how the council of Trent and the actual words of Vatican II are in such discord. But that comes down to the hermeneutic one uses. There is a hermeneutic of discontinuity, employed by 'liberals' and also by fringe rad-trads which says that the old and the new are incompatible. One approves the new and rejects the old, while the other bemoans the loss of the old and rejects the new. The bulk of us have a hermeneutic of continuity, where the old and the new are seen as parts of a continuous whole.

Markie Boy said:

Thank you for this! That's what I see, yes. I entered the Church just recently, and once inside it was not what I read about. Almost the only active group was the Charismatics, and what they were doing was not "orthodox". I talked to one priest, and he pretty much said he steers clear of it, but the bishop allows it - Lord only knows why.

You can tell who the "orthodox" Catholics are and who are not, and it seems everyone gets to do what they want these days. And I'm a newbie.

I have been looking at Orthodoxy now, as all the off the wall stuff in the Catholic Church has me wondering. But I really don't want to leave!

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These are confusing times for sure.

I think you should consider remaining in the Church and find a spirituality that allows you to build your faith. For me that is my Marian devotion. I have found the Rosary the most powerful way to deal with my frustrations with some of the things I see happening in the Church.

If you have the means to do so, visit different parishes and perhaps you may find one that is more conservative than others.

I will also suggest seeking out good Catholic reading material. Here's the site that has enough for a lifetime....

Saints' Books - Books Available

God bless

Thank you Charles for listening. These are confusing times.

God Bless