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Van Til

JM

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Posted online, "Cornelius VanTil taught a type of apologetics that reflect a post Kantian mindset. VanTil holds to this curious notion that not all grace is salvific; but that their is also common grace. VanTil taught a free well meant offer of the Gospel which leads to decisional regenerationism. That is the reason that in the late 1970s and early 1980s when the conservatives were driven from the old United Presbyterian Church USA; almost none of those who stood in the tradition of Addison Leitch and John H. Gerstner joined the OPC."

What do you think?
 

Radagast

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I'm not a supporter of Van Til, but this quote is not a fair or accurate statement of his views, and it seems to me to reflect a misunderstanding of several theological concepts. Where was it from? (according to Google, it doesn't exist online).

VanTil holds to this curious notion that not all grace is salvific; but that their is also common grace.

Grace is favour from God that we have not earned. Unsaved people sometimes receive good things from God. This is what people mean by "common grace." It is, of course, not salvific.

Van Til was actually not a strong supporter of the "common grace" concept.
 
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Radagast

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almost none of those who stood in the tradition of Addison Leitch and John H. Gerstner joined the OPC

As I recall, John H. Gerstner did nevertheless leave the PCUSA, joining the PCA.
 
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faroukfarouk

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Posted online, "Cornelius VanTil taught a type of apologetics that reflect a post Kantian mindset. VanTil holds to this curious notion that not all grace is salvific; but that their is also common grace. VanTil taught a free well meant offer of the Gospel which leads to decisional regenerationism. That is the reason that in the late 1970s and early 1980s when the conservatives were driven from the old United Presbyterian Church USA; almost none of those who stood in the tradition of Addison Leitch and John H. Gerstner joined the OPC."

What do you think?
Hi; who said the quote? Rushdoony, or someone similar?
 
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JM

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It was posted on fb by a Reformed Anglican. I'm not a fan of the 'common grace' idea but understand what VanTil was getting at. I just don't believe he should've used 'grace' when he meant common providence.
 
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Posted online, "Cornelius Van Til taught a type of apologetics that reflect a post Kantian mindset.

Umm no, his defense of the faith reflects his greatest influences which included: Calvin, Voss, Kuyper, Hodge, Warfield, and Machen. The Reformed faith in general had the greatest influence on his mindset. He sought to reform the neglected fields of philosophy and apologetics to make them more and biblically consistent with Reformed theology, and to that end I believe he succeeded. His system of apologetics is based on the thoughts of Reformed believers such as those mentioned above.

VanTil holds to this curious notion that not all grace is salvific; but that their is also common grace.

Van Til wrote at great length on the subject, and as always is worth reading and worth consideration. I could include long quotes from Van Til, pages of quotes, but it would not do him justice, so I can only recommend seeking out the complete works and reading them.

VanTil taught a free well meant offer of the Gospel which leads to decisional regenerationism.

While he taught a free well meant offer (as other WTS faculty did such as John Murray) he did not teach decisional regeneration, nor does his teachings imply such. In fact, quite the opposite is true, his defense of the faith is heavily dependent on the biblical doctrine of total depravity or total inability.

That is the reason that in the late 1970s and early 1980s when the conservatives were driven from the old United Presbyterian Church USA; almost none of those who stood in the tradition of Addison Leitch and John H. Gerstner joined the OPC."

What do you think?

So they did not join because of one man? I think the author of the quote needs to sharpen with more iron before coming to such conclusions.
 
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Grace is favour from God that we have not earned. Unsaved people sometimes receive good things from God. This is what people mean by "common grace." It is, of course, not salvific.

Van Til was actually not a strong supporter of the "common grace" concept.

Though hardly scratching the surface, a few verses touching on cg:

(Ps 73:3 [NKJV])
For I was envious of the boastful, When I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

(Jer 5:28 [NKJV])
They have grown fat, they are sleek; Yes, they surpass the deeds of the wicked; They do not plead the cause, The cause of the fatherless; Yet they prosper, And the right of the needy they do not defend.

(Jer 12:1 [NKJV])
Righteous are You, O LORD, when I plead with You; Yet let me talk with You about Your judgments. Why does the way of the wicked prosper? Why are those happy who deal so treacherously?

(Matt 5:45 [KJV])
That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

Unsaved people are partakers in countless undeserved unmerited earthly blessings which originate from God (everything good does). However, they are not partakers in the greatest undeserved unmerited blessing of all, salvation in Christ. I seem to recall Augustine as having written something along the lines of "all of life is grace", which is to say we deserve no favor from God even from birth, and every breath of air we breath is grace, for God to sovereignly allow it is grace. Although I prefer to reserve the term grace exclusively to the saving grace of God in Christ, to refrain from confusion over grace, neither can I deny the earthly blessings God bestows to all of mankind, including bearing His image, and the faculties to enjoy the world around us, such as breathing fresh air of the sweetest of fragrances.
 
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Radagast

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I just don't believe he should've used 'grace' when he meant common providence.

Grace means unearned favour from God. It is actually the right word, although it often confuses people.
 
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As a more direct response to:

"the conservatives were driven from the old United Presbyterian Church USA; almost none of those who stood in the tradition of Addison Leitch and John H. Gerstner joined the OPC."

Let's check out what the OPC offical positions on common grace and the free offer are:

  • Does the OPC officially adopt the doctrine of Common Grace (as explained by the CRC Synod of 1924)?
  • Does the OPC officially adopt the "well intended offer" (God desires to save all who hear the external call)?
  • Does the OPC officially embrace presuppositional apologetics (Van Til) over against the classical apologetics (Sproul, Hodge)?

Answer:

The answer to each of these questions—with the word "officially" in them—is "no."

SOURCE

Tell me why a conservative Presbyterian would pass on joining a conservative Presbyterian denomination, on account of a few disagreements with another conservative Presbyterian, who attended an OPC in PA? I suppose all those conservatives including Gerstner also lived in PA and disliked Van Til so much they could not imagine even attending the same Church with him, much less be in the same denomination of Presbyterianism! My goodness, Lord have mercy!
 
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JM

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Umm no, his defense of the faith reflects his greatest influences which included: Calvin, Voss, Kuyper, Hodge, Warfield, and Machen. The Reformed faith in general had the greatest influence on his mindset. He sought to reform the neglected fields of philosophy and apologetics to make them more and biblically consistent with Reformed theology, and to that end I believe he succeeded. His system of apologetics is based on the thoughts of Reformed believers such as those mentioned above.

If the above is true...why wouldn't the quote below be a logical outcome?

So they did not join because of one man? I think the author of the quote needs to sharpen with more iron before coming to such conclusions.
 
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JM

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Grace means unearned favour from God. It is actually the right word, although it often confuses people.

I understand what it means but disagree with how Van Til is applying it to the reprobate, especially considering there are three different views.


There is no such thing as common "grace,"

“Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.” James 5:5

Dr. Gill comments,

when beasts were slain for some extraordinary entertainment, or for the solemn festivals and sacrifices the Jews, when they lived more deliciously than at other times; and then the sense is, that these rich men fared sumptuously every day; every day was a festival with them; they indulged themselves in intemperance; they ate and drank, not merely what was necessary, and satisfying, and cheering to nature, but to excess, and gorged, and filled themselves in an extravagant manner: the Syriac version, instead of “hearts”, reads “bodies” and one copy reads, “your flesh”: and the last phrase may be rendered, as it is in the same version, “as unto”, or “for the day of slaughter”; and so the Arabic version, “ye have nourished your hearts, as fattened for the day of slaughter”: like beasts that are fattened in order to be killed, so were they preparing and fitting up by their sins for destruction.​

“But thou, O LORD, knowest me: thou hast seen me, and tried mine heart toward thee: pull them out like sheep for the slaughter, and prepare them for the day of slaughter.” Jeremiah 12:3

Again, John Gill:

either out of the fold, or from a fat pasture; so fat sheep are plucked from the rest, in order to be killed: this shows that their riches, affluence, and plenty, served but to ripen them for ruin and destruction, and were like the fattening of sheep for slaughter; which the prophet, by this imprecation, suggests and foretells would be their case, as a righteous judgement upon them;​

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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If the above is true...why wouldn't the quote below be a logical outcome?

My thought is, Van Til had little to no reason for them not joining the OPC. If I am wrong (as I often am, ask my wife), it would be nice to see direct quotes from sources with links.
 
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JM

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My thought is, Van Til had little to no reason for them not joining the OPC. If I am wrong (as I often am, ask my wife), it would be nice to see direct quotes from sources with links.

Van Til is cool and all but maybe Sproul's apprehension about his system was justified. Maybe Van Til was not so influential, I don't know. I'm far from being an expert on Van Tillianism.
 
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Van Til is cool and all but maybe Sproul's apprehension about his system was justified. Maybe Van Til was not so influential, I don't know. I'm far from being an expert on Van Tillianism.

Well, as far as I know Sproul and Van Til never crossed paths openly, however Sproul did agree to a friendly debate with Bahnsen. Both were in fine form and real gentlemen like. A few of us could sense perhaps a shift in Sproul in his later years more in the direction of presuppositionalism. At times, points, places he struck me as perhaps an undercover presuppositionalist. Whatever the case may be, God loves His people, and debates will cease when we all get to Heaven, what a day of rejoicing it will be!
 
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JM

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Well, as far as I know Sproul and Van Til never crossed paths openly, however Sproul did agree to a friendly debate with Bahnsen. Both were in fine form and real gentlemen like. A few of us could sense perhaps a shift in Sproul in his later years more in the direction of presuppositionalism. At times, points, places he struck me as perhaps an undercover presuppositionalist. Whatever the case may be, God loves His people, and debates will cease when we all get to Heaven, what a day of rejoicing it will be!

780px-Bible_cycle.jpg


Presuppositionalism begs the question and is circular in reasoning. I've seem some guys on youtube use presuppositionalism incorrectly and it results in infinite regress. At some point you have to turn to pure evidence.

But as you posted, all will be settled one day. That's a great comfort.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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Presuppositionalism begs the question and is circular in reasoning. I've seem some guys on youtube use presuppositionalism incorrectly and it results in infinite regress. At some point you have to turn to pure evidence.

And what reasoning that begins and ends with God as the source of that reasoning will not be circular?

Tbh I do not care about some guys on youtube, it seems everyone except for a few old timers like myself have a youtube channel and the list goes on. Sorry it's just my boy watches youtube all the time, yeah my fault, and he is constantly changing channels (one short clip to the next), from one homegrown video to another and talk about spoiled kids and weird parents, of course it's all about the advertisements and subscribers, blah. lol

Well, I suppose when we are in Heaven we can agree, the evidentialists are right, except there will be nobody to contend with about the interpretation of it or how it proves the doctrine of the Trinity. For now though, at some point, you have to preach the Gospel, and whatsoever God wills, will or will not happen. Now look where you caused me to go in the conversation. :D Monergistic regeneration at the end of the day, but if seeds are not planted, how will growth take place?
 
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Radagast

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There is no such thing as common "grace,"

“Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.” James 5:5

I really don't see how that James quote is relevant to common grace.

AFAIK, the only groups which officially deny common grace are Hoeksema's Protestant Reformed Churches in America (with less than 10,000 members) and a handful of much, much smaller groups.

I've never heard a good argument against common grace; I'd love to hear one.
 
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JM

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And what reasoning that begins and ends with God as the source of that reasoning will not be circular?

You know the answer to that.

Tbh I do not care about some guys on youtube, it seems everyone except for a few old timers like myself have a youtube channel and the list goes on. Sorry it's just my boy watches youtube all the time, yeah my fault, and he is constantly changing channels (one short clip to the next), from one homegrown video to another and talk about spoiled kids and weird parents, of course it's all about the advertisements and subscribers, blah. lol

I made the video to explain the differences but, as you already know, if you are comfortable in your worldview you'll probably not seek further.
 
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JM

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I really don't see how that James quote is relevant to common grace.

AFAIK, the only groups which officially deny common grace are Hoeksema's Protestant Reformed Churches in America (with less than 10,000 members) and a handful of much, much smaller groups.

I've never heard a good argument against common grace; I'd love to hear one.

The quote from James explains that it is not 'grace' that sustains the sinner because their lives are being compared to being fattened like sheep for slaughter...unless you think that's gracious.
 
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