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Value of Historical Evidence

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smaneck

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You could find better records of a random Roman citizen than you can for Jesus Christ.

Thing is that from the standpoint of most people at the time, Jesus would have been less than a random Roman citizen. He was an obscure Judean carpenter, one of hundreds who were claiming to the Messiah. Now could He have done all the miracles ascribed to Him and remained obscure? I rather doubt it, and for that reason I'm not sure how many of those miracles literally happened. But speaking as a historian (and I am a historian by profession) it is reasonably certain that Jesus existed and that He was crucified. Almost everything else I believe about Him is based on faith. And on the fact that the church exists.
 
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Ana the Ist

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I'm not sure what you mean. The story obviously produced an effect on history.

Obviously. I'm not disputing that at all...it's had a tremendous effect on history. However, we don't need an actual real life Jesus to have the story of Jesus. The effect of the story on history is undeniable...but it doesn't stand as evidence for Jesus. What I'm asking for is that historical "crossing the Rubicon-type" of evidence that could only exist if there were c real true to life Jesus.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Is there anything a little less miraculous that could have happened that passes as Rubicon-type?
I don't disagree with you here, I'm just trying to think of what he personally could have done that would leave a lasting impression on the world. Some refer to the story as that kind of evidence, even saying that there wouldn't be any mention of the guy if he didn't actually exist and do the things they say he did.

Which seems to me like a silly thing to assert. We have dozens, probably hundreds of mythical figures who possess all sorts of wonderful qualities and do all sorts of amazing things (which there isn't any evidence of either). Yet we don't consider the fact that there are stories or even whole books written about them as proof they existed.

It's hard to think of something small in magnitude that could leave a lasting impact on history, which is precisely why I chose the Rubicon example (that, and I've actually heard it argued that there is more evidence of Jesus's existence than of Julius Caesar). I suppose there certainly could be evidence of a smaller magnitude, but I can't think of any off the top of my head.
 
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smaneck

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bhsmte

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Thing is that from the standpoint of most people at the time, Jesus would have been less than a random Roman citizen. He was an obscure Judean carpenter, one of hundreds who were claiming to the Messiah. Now could He have done all the miracles ascribed to Him and remained obscure? I rather doubt it, and for that reason I'm not sure how many of those miracles literally happened. But speaking as a historian (and I am a historian by profession) it is reasonably certain that Jesus existed and that He was crucified. Almost everything else I believe about Him is based on faith. And on the fact that the church exists.

In my own research, I have read the following, let me know if you would agree from a historian standpoint.

-historians will never validate miracles as historical events, because a historians job is to determine "what likely happened" in the past and a miracle by nature, is the least likely explanation of any event.
-NT historians can only find concensus on the following in regards to Jesus and all else attributed to Jesus in the NT is in question:

-Jesus was a real person
-Jesus was baptized
-Jesus had followers
-Jesus was crucified
 
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Ana the Ist

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You said: "There is no act in Jesus's life that changed history in a way that the mere story of his life couldn't."

I guess I didn't quite understand what you were saying. What I'm saying is that the totality of the story of Jesus did change history, and that I don't think it could have been wholly made up.

Why not? I don't mean this as a slam on christianity, but I've read deeper religious texts that were created as in-game texts for video games. Is it so difficult to think someone wrote the bible completely from their head?
 
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smaneck

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Sometimes I wish the peer review process in science existed in history as well. I have no problem with someone creating a colorful interpretation of some historical text or event.. but blatant lies should be exposed for what they are.

It does if you submit the work to an academic publisher. Harper Collins does publish academic works but this work was published by their non-academic wing.
 
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smaneck

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Why not? I don't mean this as a slam on christianity, but I've read deeper religious texts that were created as in-game texts for video games. Is it so difficult to think someone wrote the bible completely from their head?

Uh, yeah. The Bible is a multi-author work as seen by the very different writings styles. That is how historians distinguish which epistles Paul actually wrote from those he likely did not write.
 
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smaneck

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Read The Victory of Reason: How Christianity Led to Freedom, Capitalism, and Western Success by Rodney Stark and get some concepts about how Christian thinking impacted society.

John
NZ

Uugh. Even the title turns me off. Does Stark even recognize that in the pre-modern times the Islamic world was the most capitalistic, the most individualistic and the most socially mobile society on the face of the earth? It was the Enlightenment, an explicitly anti-Christian movement that gave rise to these things in the West. The only thing I would agree with him regarding Christianity leading to Western Success is that the Voyages of Discovery were largely a continuation of the Crusades, but they introduced new wealth into Europe which allowed it to take off.
 
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smaneck

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Many scholars see that it was a combination of Greek and Christian thinking that was responsible for the Enlightenment. Greek thinking by itself was incapable of initiating science as we understand it.

Indeed Greek thinking is incapable of initiating modern science, which is why the Enlightenment (and before it the Scientific Revolution) had to discard Greek philosophy in order to move forward. The synthesis of Greek philosophy and Christian theology as represented by scholastics like Thomas Aquinas got in the way of the development of modern science. Galileo was persecuted as much because his findings conflicted with Greek philosophy as with scripture.

There is one Christian theologian whose thinking did genuinely contribute to the modern age, and that is person William of Occam who adopted a position not dissimilar from that of the Muslim theologians.
William of Occam insisted that reason and revelation operated in two
completely different spheres. The method by which we know things depends on nature of the object to be understood. The nature of God, human morality,
and the metaphysical world could be known only by means of revelation
whereas the physical world could best be understood by inductive reasoning
which involved experience and experimentation. No room was left in this
paradigm for most of Greek philosophy, which relied on abstract ideals and
depreciated the concrete, but room was created for the emergence of what
would later become the modern scientific method. This would not happen until
the sixteenth and seventh century voyages provided the economic means for a scientific revolution, but I would argue that the theoretical basis for one was laid out two centuries earlier.

Your story of logic and reason is a child of the Enlightenment.

Understand that the 'logic and reason' of the Enlightenment is not logic and reason of the Greek philosophers. It is inductive, not deductive and conceived in terms of 'common sense' as Thomas Paine used the phrase.

Its founding 'gospel' was that science and education would eliminate poverty, hunger, war and disease. How's it going on its promises?

And that is where the Enlightenment makes its fatal error, in my opinion.
The Enlightenment represented an attempt to apply the scientific method to all areas of human life including those, which Occam had relegated to religion, such as the nature of God and human morality. It saw no function for revelation whatsoever, since all knowledge could be deduced through the study of natural law. Initially this led them to deism, a conception of God in terms of an impersonal essence much as the Greeks conceived but eventually some philosphers like David Hume argued that ultimately it was impossible to prove philosophically that there was any God whatsoever and one can certainly not deduce morality from nature.
 
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smaneck

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Also, the bulk of NT historians and scholars who study the NT and Jesus, are devout Christians themselves, not exactly the most objective crowd to do historical work.

I would not assume that. Generally they start out as Christians but as their research continues. Ehrman, for instance, went through a lot of stages. He starts out as an Evangelical, then becomes a liberal Christian. Now he is agnostic. Likewise William Dever, who taught Biblical Archaeology where I did my graduate work started out as Congregational minister. Eventually he became a Jew and still later agnostic.
Biblical studies when pursued academically changes you. So does a decent seminary.
 
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bhsmte

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I would not assume that. Generally they start out as Christians but as their research continues. Ehrman, for instance, went through a lot of stages. He starts out as an Evangelical, then becomes a liberal Christian. Now he is agnostic. Likewise William Dever, who taught Biblical Archaeology where I did my graduate work started out as Congregational minister. Eventually he became a Jew and still later agnostic.
Biblical studies when pursued academically changes you. So does a decent seminary.

I would agree, a thorough study of the bible probably drives more away from Christianity than anything. I still believe, the vast majority of scholars and historians would be considered devout Christians.
 
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smaneck

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I would agree, a thorough study of the bible probably drives more away from Christianity than anything. I still believe, the vast majority of scholars and historians would be considered devout Christians.

Devout, maybe. But if they are fundamentalist they won't usually survive in academically.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Have you read Stark? Have you critiqued his historical analysis amongst other historians and their assessments of his work? Lesslie Newbegin asks a similar question in his book 'Proper Confidence', raising the question of why the West did develop as it did, including scientifically, when the older and far more advanced civilizations of Europe's' medieval period of India and the Arabs failed to do so. Many scholars see that it was a combination of Greek and Christian thinking that was responsible for the Enlightenment. Greek thinking by itself was incapable of initiating science as we understand it.

Your story of logic and reason is a child of the Enlightenment. Its founding 'gospel' was that science and education would eliminate poverty, hunger, war and disease. How's it going on its promises? Postmodernism is a critique of that thinking (Modernism), accusing it of non delivery on its promises. Nihilism is a logical stance adopted by some as an implication of the modernist position. Our daily news is not telling us of worldwide nirvana.

And your logic and rationality (ie objectivity) of the scientific knowledge has been refuted by Michael Polanyi.

John
NZ

It's a little difficult to address your entire reply when you bury part of it inside my.own reply. To answer the part you buried, no, I haven't read Wright or his opinions of the origins of the NT. I'd gladly welcome any insights you have, or if you think you can summarize his position, I'd love to hear it.

As for Stark, I've actually read most of the book you referenced. I didn't finish it because his historical analysis is so selective it's almost embarrassing. The Dark Ages were marked by a few things that he seems to want to forget. It was a time of almost slavish devotion to christianity, where the bible and it's teachings invaded almost every aspect of life. It was a time of almost unprecedented suffering, due to disease, war, and famine (funny you should mention those). It was a time of extraordinarily slow progress not only in technology but also thinking. The majority of progress made in the west under the Greeks and Romans was practically abandoned if not forgotten...and frankly it's hard to find any reason for this outside of christianity.

Yes a have read positive reviews of the book...many made by fellow historians and professors. I've also read scathing critiques that call it what it is...a blindly one-sided love letter to christians and christianity. If anyone doubts this I'd encourage them to read it for themselves.

The point here, though, isn't christianity's impact upon society. I'm asking for evidence of Jesus's existence that could not be explained by the story of Jesus alone. Everything you've mentioned not only happened after Jesus died, it happened after the NT was written. So clearly, all of the effects you're arguing about did happen because of the story of Jesus, and not because of Jesus himself.

Here's a solid critique of Stark's book for those uninterested it sitting through it. It highlights many (but not all) of the flaws in Stark's argument.
http://www.theobjectivestandard.com/issues/2006-winter/tragedy-of-theology.asp
 
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Ana the Ist

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It does for many journals. The American Historical Association strongly supports peer review, and the American Historical Review (the AHA journal) is peer-reviewed.

I was not aware of that. Still, it would be nice if every published historical work were up for peer review. Another poster on here referenced a book by Rodney Stark which is at best wild exaggeration...at worst outright lies. I posted a critique of the book which details much of what Stark got wrong if you want to see for yourself. The problem is, that most people don't know any better...so when they hear that their religion is responsible for everything good in the world, view gladly accept it as fact instead of critically examining it as they should.
 
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smaneck

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I was not aware of that. Still, it would be nice if every published historical work were up for peer review.

Peer reviewed works are rarely accessible to a popular audience. Most of the popular works on science are not peer reviewed either.

Another poster on here referenced a book by Rodney Stark which is at best wild exaggeration...at worst outright lies.

Its a perspective which I consider wrong, but that particular work is being taken seriously in academic circles as the review I posted indicates.
What it demonstrates, to me however, is the dangers of a Eurocentric education.
 
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Ana the Ist

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Because the NT is not written to be viewed as a fictional narrative. It is written as an attempt to record real events. Even if those attempts failed to some degree due to embellishment, it is still clear that the writers did not intend it to be fiction.



I personally find those that deny the existence of Jesus to be atheism's equivalent of creationists. It is too far-fetched and at all times the adherents of such views seem to be either grasping at straws or demanding impossible evidence. Creationists have their "lack of transition fossils" and now I guess Jesus-deniers have their "lack of Rubicon-esque evidence". Trying to shoehorn the argument against Jesus' existence seems to go against Occam's Razor and is thus unscientific.

It is unfair to compare Jesus to Julius Caesar and demand the same evidence for both. It is like creationists viewing 3 billion year old fossilized DNA on the same level as fossilized dinosaur bones. When we fail to produce evidence of 3 billion year old DNA molecules, creationists claim victory. But, the fact is, DNA will likely never be preserved in such a way. It is impossible evidence to have. Dinosaur bones on the other hand, are more likely to be preserved.

In the same way, comparing one of the most powerful Roman emperors in history to a carpenter/sage in the Levant cannot be done. Caesar has more evidence and will likely always have more evidence. The fact that we have so much written about some carpenter/sage in the Levant is shocking actually. Truly, considering Jesus' place on the world stage, we should never have even heard about him. There have been thousands of wise men/sages that have lived throughout history that we never heard about. Jesus is one of the few exceptions along with the likes of Buddha and Confucius (and even Buddha was a prince, not just a commoner!)

Whoa there...I think you have me mistaken with someone else lol. Firstly, I never said the bible was meant to be taken as a work of fiction. I said fictional "characters" in my quote you used. Indeed, I would argue that nearly all religious texts (even the ones we now regard as pure mythology) were meant to be taken seriously, as real events that either happened or would happen. This doesn't mean that I don't think most of the bible is fictional, I do. I just think the writer(s) had the sense to set it in a real time and place so it would be considered real.

I'm also not demanding the same amount of evidence as we have for Julius Caesar. I'm well aware we won't ever have the same amount of evidence that we have for Caesar. In fact, I think it was intentionally written in a way that explains certain evidence that is lacking. I don't really want to go into the reasons I think the bible was written though, I'm simply curious if anyone is aware of any evidence of the type I'm describing.

Something that I thought of though when you said that it's "shocking" we have so much written about him at all. I don't think what we have is a particularly shocking amount, but considering that you do believe his story is embellished (and I don't know to what extent you think it's embellished) perhaps a good question for you would be, why write about him at all? If he really existed as just a wise man or a good teacher...why make up this fairly ridiculous story about him? Was it because he was so little known that no one would be able to refute the story? (Which, as it happens, would also be a good reason to create an entirely fictional character). Or do you believe that his teachings were so wise, so revolutionary for his time, that they just had to write about him (and make stuff up in the process). If Jesus himself believed his teachings were so important that others should know them and follow them...why not write some of them down himself?
 
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Ana the Ist

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It absolutely applies in history, at least if you are an academic in the field. I'm a historian and only my peer-reviewed work counted towards tenure and promotion.

There is no academic field which is exempt from this.

Does it apply to books as well?

I don't learn much of the history I know from journals...I'd be willing to bet the average person gets even less of their historical knowledge from journals. I read books, and unfortunately, it seems like you can publish just about any junk history and get away with it. Actually, in some cases, they not only get away with it but they become very successful. Historical fact it seems is dominated by historical rumor and speculation.
 
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