Validity of Origen's writings?

[Tutorman]

Oh! Thank you, I didn't realize. I just thought it meant orthodox. Are there online repositories of their writings? All I can find are synopsis and books for sale. I would especially like to read Origen's works. But I would like to be able to use keyword searches to find places to start reading.

Christian Classics Ethereal Library Great resource!

 

[Fascinated With God]

Christian Classics Ethereal Library Great resource!

There's not much of the actual writings of the early Fathers. I did a search on Origen and only got ten hits of occurrences of his name anywhere on the site.

 

[Tutorman]

Many of his writings are considered heresy that is probably why, though I can not say for sure

 

[Fascinated With God]

Many of his writings are considered heresy that is probably why, though I can not say for sure

No, that was followers of his 300 years later. Origen is widely considered to be the most important Christian theologian of all time and was certainly the most prominent Father of his day.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Many of his writings are considered heresy that is probably why, though I can not say for sure

Hmmm... you're right, only a tiny fraction of his original writings survive. Regardless, he is still revered. This is from Wikipedia:

Nonetheless, in spite of the decrees against Origen, the church remained enamored of him and he remained a central figure of Christian theology throughout the first millennium. He continued to be revered as the founder of Biblical exegesis and anyone in the first millennium who took the interpretation of the scriptures seriously would have had knowledge of Origen's teachings​

 

[gordonhooker]

For those who are interested I have attached a pdf file that contains a search for the words 'soul' and 'spirit' in the Apostolic Fathers accordance Bible software reference. I shows how each word was used by the various Apostolic Fathers.

To clarify the source used for these searches:

In Accordance Bible Software I own a resource (book) called:

Apostolic Fathers English (Lightfoot)
The Apostolic Fathers (AFL-E)
Translated by J.B. Lightfoot.
Public Domain
Version 1.5

My search was only for 'soul' and 'spirit' in that particular resource (book) it was not a search of all possible manuscripts that may have been written by the various Apostolic/Early Christian Fathers.

My original purpose for this post was because someone in an earlier post asked what the Apostolic Fathers had to say about the subject 'soul' and 'spirit' so I thought I would provide a search of some of the material that I own.

My purpose for this clarification is because my list was questioned as being incomplete or invalid because it does not contain the quotes by every other Apostolic Father. I did quote the book I searched in the attached pdf file but it seems that point was missed when reading the document.

People do with the document what you wish.

 

[Fascinated With God]

For those who are interested I have attached a pdf file that contains a search for the words 'soul' and 'spirit' in the Apostolic Fathers accordance Bible software reference. I shows how each word was used by the various Apostolic Fathers.

You only have Ignatius, Clement, Barnabas, Polycarp, Mathetes, Hermas, and the Didache. Where is Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Origen, Tertullian, and all the others?

 

[gordonhooker]

You only have Ignatius, Clement, Barnabas, Polycarp, Mathetes, Hermas, and the Didache. Where is Athanasius, Augustine, Jerome, John Chrysostom, Origen, Tertullian, and all the others?

Hmmmmm they are not in that particular book or they did not use the words ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’, what don’t you understand about the word search?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Hmmmmm they are not in that particular book or they did not use the words ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’, what don’t you understand about the word search?

Wow isnt that rude....

 

[RDKirk]

While we are made in the image of the Triune God, there exists no trinity of persons within an individual human being. It is highly debatable and I think incorrect to say that man is tripartite (body, soul, and spirit). Rather, man has two aspects: body and soul/spirit. Soul and spirit are not really two distinct things. Anyone who suggests that they are will have a very difficult time explaining how they are different.

My reading of scripture suggests a different combination.

"Soul" is difficult to define from scripture, but it appears to me to reference the combination of mind and body excluding consideration of the spirit--which would be the operational state of an unbeliever, a person operating with the functions of just mind and body.

I see us in scripture as a combination of a rational, intellectual mind controlling a non-intellectual body in the material realm and a non-intellectual spirit that exists in the spiritual realm.

If our minds were fully in connection and control of both, we would be like Jesus, able to operate in both realms with full effectiveness.

But because of the Fall, we were born with "comatose" spirits, as unto dead, that are awakened when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Until then, our minds are connected only to our bodies and we have grown up responding only to our bodies. But with our spirits now awakened, we can become more responsive to the "groanings"--the needs and impulses--of our spirits and put the needs and impulses of the body under the control of our minds.

Something you've said is important to this discussion: The Triniity consists of three Persons of one Substance. We as humans, regardless how we dispute the meaning of "body," "mind," and "spirit," are definitely not comprised by three "persons."

 

[Fascinated With God]

Hmmmmm they are not in that particular book or they did not use the words ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’, what don’t you understand about the word search?

I would not have made the post if I had not checked myself. There are upward of a 1000 hits you missed. BTW, I'm a software engineer. LOL I knew the instant I saw only 19 pages of text that that was WAY too small. Hardly more than the number of references in the Bible *itself* and the writings of the Fathers are many times the size of the Bible.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

My reading of scripture suggests a different combination.

"Soul" is difficult to define from scripture, but it appears to me to reference the combination of mind and body excluding consideration of the spirit--which would be the operational state of an unbeliever, a person operating with the functions of just mind and body.

I see us in scripture as a combination of a rational, intellectual mind controlling a non-intellectual body in the material realm and a non-intellectual spirit that exists in the spiritual realm.

If our minds were fully in connection and control of both, we would be like Jesus, able to operate in both realms with full effectiveness.

But because of the Fall, we were born with "comatose" spirits, as unto dead, that are awakened when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Until then, our minds are connected only to our bodies and we have grown up responding only to our bodies. But with our spirits now awakened, we can become more responsive to the "groanings"--the needs and impulses--of our spirits and put the needs and impulses of the body under the control of our minds.

Something you've said is important to this discussion: The Triniity consists of three Persons of one Substance. We as humans, regardless how we dispute the meaning of "body," "mind," and "spirit," are definitely not comprised by three "persons."

I agree...the soul, our ego, is at war with the spirit when it comes to addictions. It seems like the body and soul team up to go against our spirit and His. I think this is where a big part of fighting comes from.

It is not out body or soul that fights not against flesh and blood but our spirit and His. Imho

 

[Fascinated With God]

"Soul" is difficult to define from scripture, but it appears to me to reference the combination of mind and body excluding consideration of the spirit--which would be the operational state of an unbeliever, a person operating with the functions of just mind and body.

That interpretation renders Hebrews 4:12 meaningless if soul and spirit are so obviously distinct:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.​

 

[Fascinated With God]

I agree...the soul, our ego, is at war with the spirit when it comes to addictions. It seems like the body and soul team up to go against our spirit and His. I think this is where a big part of fighting comes from.

The soul connects the spirit to the body, it is in between, so naturally, it is going to be closer to the body than the spirit. However, I don't see it as soul bad / spirit good. People couldn't be affected by unclean spirits if human spirits were all good or in perfect condition.

 

[Fascinated With God]

But because of the Fall, we were born with "comatose" spirits, as unto dead, that are awakened when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Until then, our minds are connected only to our bodies and we have grown up responding only to our bodies. But with our spirits now awakened

I had all kinds of spiritual experiences as a child going back to age 4 (as early as I can recall), that are not dissimilar from some of my experiences as an adult. My personal experience is not like your "spirit born comatose" theory.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

That interpretation renders Hebrews 4:12 meaningless if soul and spirit are so obviously distinct:

For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.​

I think you are correct the Soul [Psuche 5590 ] and spirit [Pneuma 4151] are closely related.

I think the verse is saying, from what i am studying, that which God speaks [Logos - the cutter] through any medium, the Word or the Holy Spirit and it is quick and powerful, living and active manifesting in the world and men's hearts. It it incisive and penetrating and makes a distinction like a carving knife. Dividing is the act of division; not the line or point of division. The form of expression is poetical, and signifies that the word penetrates to the inmost recesses of our spiritual being. The separation is not one part from another, but operates in each department of the spiritual nature.

I think the last line is the key... the functionality differentiation since we can not materially separate the two. So I think soul and spirit have different functions but are of the same spiritual being with 2 facets.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

The soul connects the spirit to the body, it is in between, so naturally, it is going to be closer to the body than the spirit. However, I don't see it as soul bad / spirit good. People couldn't be affected by unclean spirits if human spirits were all good or in perfect condition.

I dont see the soul as bad..i just see it as carnally minded per se.

The full armour is put on the soul....not the spirit imho

Our spirit....they Holy of Holies...is saved.

 

[gordonhooker]

I have questioned myself as to why I bothered to respond to this post in the first place and decided it best that I delete my response.

I have since popped the person I was responding to in the ignore list.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Dividing is the act of division; not the line or point of division. The form of expression is poetical, and signifies that the word penetrates to the inmost recesses of our spiritual being. The separation is not one part from another, but operates in each department of the spiritual nature.

Being the shortest religious scripture in the world, exegesis of the NT has always been riddled with debate over whether certain verses are literal or poetic metaphors. A metaphor must align with the overall context.

Bone is eggshell thin at the joints. You can't chew or cut it off without pulling off some marrow. Try eating some chicken bones. So the metaphor is one of refined discrimination, being ablrome to dissect the eggshell-thin bone layer from the marrow and expose all the marrow without pulling any away.

The two ends of the bone is a duality between matter and spirit, but a duality that is not binary, it is a polarity. The marrow is the soul, a spectrum between matter and spirit, that is entangled with both. A corollary to this is that the lower aspects of the soul are indistinguishable from beasts.

 

[Fascinated With God]

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