vain repetitions

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

ViaCrucis said:
At no point did God the Father audibly speak to any of the apostles. Not a single example of that in the entire New Testament. At no point did the apostles claim they had little chit-chats with God where they audibly heard His voice.

God can do anything He likes, even sound a booming voice from the heavens as He did when the Lord Jesus was in the Jordan River.

But you're talking about something that not only doesn't exist in the New Testament, but which directly contradicts the entire New Testament's way of talking about how we know and relate to God.

Is Jesus not GOD? He speaks to me almost every day.

Is The Holy Spirit not GOD? He teaches me things by revelation every day (as Jesus said He would), and at times has specifically spoken directly to me.

Now granted, GOD The Father does not always speak to me, but He has. When He does, His voice reverberates through my whole being. The one major time that He did pulled me out of time just for a moment. I caught myself sort of gliding or stepping back into time as I was walking. I guess that is what happens when Eternity speaks.

ViaCrucis said:
So I suppose there's two possibilities here.

1) You have such a unique and profound direct experience of God that not even the Apostles of Jesus Christ ever had, and arguably not even Moses had when he communed with God on Mt. Horeb.

Or

2) It's not God.

The first possibility seems unlikely. To borrow a recently used expression in this thread, I'm not buying it. So the second seems most likely.

Now what it could be is open to a lot of possibilities. If there really is an audible voice that you are really, actually hearing. Well that's a very serious cause for alarm. I'd ask you what this voice thinks if you were to ask it about, say, making the sign of the cross, or praying the Lord's Prayer; but I can't in good conscience tell you to engage with, interact with, or mess around with something impersonating God. The only safe and right advice I can give is to stop contact, immediately get on your knees and pray--ignoring any voices, immediately get your nose and eyes into the Scriptures, and then talk with your pastor at the first available time. If your pastor does not find this whole thing alarming, then you need a new pastor, and if this sort of thing is accepted and even encouraged in your current church, find a new church immediately.

-CryptoLutheran

Or,..... you've never had GOD speak to you and you wrongfully assume that He won't.

I'll buy that for a dollar.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

dzheremi said:
For myself, the experiences of our fathers and mothers of the desert are more evidence than I could ever need to be convinced not to mess around with spirits presenting themselves as God (or angels, as was often the case), even while some of those same people also did have genuine experiences of walking and talking with Christ (e.g., St. Bishoy).

The difference between the true and the false experiences follows in the crowning humility of St. Anthony and his disciples, whereas those who had false experiences were convinced by the apparitions themselves to trust whatever they were told. Thus we developed a very strong principle, known even to laypeople like me, that it is better to reject an angel unaware than to accept a demon into one's cell by being open to flattery, or a feeling that one has advanced so far spiritually that such apparitions are or should be considered 'normal' and therefore safe to trust.

How do you know you're born again if GOD doesn't acknowledge you? What are you praying for if you don't expect Him to answer?

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
By relationship, I mean that you speak to Him and He answers you back in a audible voice, and you hold a conversation at times with Him.

It's certainly an intriguing expectation.

prodromos · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
Is Jesus not GOD? He speaks to me almost every day.

Is The Holy Spirit not GOD? He teaches me things by revelation every day (as Jesus said He would), and at times has specifically spoken directly to me.

Now granted, GOD The Father does not always speak to me, but He has. When He does, His voice reverberates through my whole being. The one major time that He did pulled me out of time just for a moment. I caught myself sort of gliding or stepping back into time as I was walking. I guess that is what happens when Eternity speaks.

You must be pure in heart, although I must confess that I'm not getting that vibe from your posts.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

prodromos said:
You must be pure in heart, although I must confess that I'm not getting that vibe from your posts.

Well Jesus said that the pure in heart would "see" GOD. I've not seen a scripture text that mentioned the same for hearing GOD. It seems you have things a little mixed up.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
It's certainly an intriguing expectation.

Absolutely.

Psalm 27 · Jul 21, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
I quoted from the King James Version because it uses the expression "vain repetitions." I've met a few people who say that praying the Lord's Prayer every Sunday in the liturgy is vain repetition. I think they mean it is repeating the same prayer without truly meaning it in one's heart. So, I wrote this post to ask how a Christian can obey what Jesus says in the passage without praying the Lord's Prayer, because Jesus says, "Thus therefore shall you pray ..." (Matthew 6:9 DRB), which implies that the Lord's Prayer should be part of a Christian's way of praying. So, what you say is right. Additionally, praying the Lord's Prayer in the liturgy is a good and wholesome part of the Church's prayer.

What i hear in church 'prayer time' is usually vain repetition. It's virtually the same people, saying similar things each week.

Jesus said 'when you pray, say...' Then taught the Lord's prayer, so that is how we should pray.

Ps. Compare The Lord's prayer in luke 11 in the niv with other versions. niv misses quite a lot out

prodromos · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
Well Jesus said that the pure in heart would "see" GOD. I've not seen a scripture text that mentioned the same for hearing GOD. It seems you have things a little mixed up.

I haven't seen a Scripture text describing what you claim to be experiencing.

dzheremi · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
How do you know you're born again if GOD doesn't acknowledge you? What are you praying for if you don't expect Him to answer?

I would say a better question is why it would be assumed that I (or anyone) would audibly hear His voice in the process of getting an answer. Does God the Father talk like that with literally everyone, and if so, why it is only recorded a few extraordinary times in the scriptures?

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

prodromos said:
I haven't seen a Scripture text describing what you claim to be experiencing.

Look into the life of Paul. My initial born again experience was very similar to his, if not even stronger.

From my experience, the majority of the traditionalist types are just not used to any interaction with GOD. They don't expect it, nor even believe it is possible. This is not the first time that I have discussed things like this on this site over the years.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

dzheremi said:
I would say a better question is why it would be assumed that I (or anyone) would audibly hear His voice in the process of getting an answer. Does God the Father talk like that with literally everyone, and if so, why it is only recorded a few extraordinary times in the scriptures?

GOD talks to those who are born again. He may not talk as frequently with everyone, but some are called and some are chosen.

People on here ought to really consider the importance of making sure that Jesus knows of them. It really doesn't matter how much a person says they know Jesus, if in fact He has never known them in the first place.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
How do you know you're born again if GOD doesn't acknowledge you? What are you praying for if you don't expect Him to answer?

You know because you are baptised. You pray because God is your Father. You pray asking for others, for the church, for the world, for yourself.

You said you expect to hear an audible voice so do others who are with you hear the voice?

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
You know because you are baptised. You pray because God is your Father. You pray asking for others, for the church, for the world, for yourself.

You said you expect to hear an audible voice so do others who are with you hear the voice?

I'm Pentecostal, all the other Pentecostals in my church hear GOD speak to them also. It is a common occurrence for us. I don't hear GOD speaking to them and neither do they hear Him speaking to me.

And let me make one correction here,....

I came to know The Lord Jesus in a mighty way one night at 3:30 in the morning on January 3rd 1992, when I looked up and asked for forgiveness for my life and for The Lord Jesus to come into my heart. This was after over 30 people had been praying for someone to get saved on my ship for over 30 days. GOD honed in on my heart the whole time and I finally reached up and received.

I did not get water immersed till about 6 months after that major event.

prodromos · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
Look into the life of Paul. My initial born again experience was very similar to his, if not even stronger.

Jesus spoke to him directly, once.

ARBITER01 said:
From my experience, the majority of the traditionalist types are just not used to any interaction with GOD. They don't expect it, nor even believe it is possible. This is not the first time that I have discussed things like this on this site over the years.

Oh I believe God speaks directly to people, but in the two thousand years experience of the Church, it mainly occured with those who have humbled themselves and crucified their passions. I know for myself that I am far from pure in heart, so if I were to hear an audible voice claiming to be God, my assumption would be that it is more likely to be a demon, since I know that I am not worthy to have God speak to me in such a manner. The Church has long experience with demons doing just such things.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

prodromos said:
Jesus spoke to him directly, once.

Actually, Jesus talked directly to Paul 3 times in Acts,...

1) Paul’s Vision on the Road to Damascus (described in Acts 9, 22, and 26).
2) Paul’s Trance in the Temple (Acts 22:17-21).
3) Paul’s Vision in Prison (Acts 23:11).

You should acquaint yourself with them.

Additionally, the whole of the NT church teachings were given to Paul by revelation from Jesus, according to Him. So obviously Paul had a much greater interaction with The Lord over the years than what is listed in scripture.

prodromos said:
Oh I believe God speaks directly to people, but in the two thousand years experience of the Church, it mainly occured with those who have humbled themselves and crucified their passions. I know for myself that I am far from pure in heart, so if I were to hear an audible voice claiming to be God, my assumption would be that it is more likely to be a demon, since I know that I am not worthy to have God speak to me in such a manner. The Church has long experience with demons doing just such things.

Did Paul humble himself from being a murderer of Christians before Jesus came into his life and talked to him?

I think you should re-evaluate that stance.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
I'm Pentecostal, all the other Pentecostals in my church hear GOD speak to them also. It is a common occurrence for us. I don't hear GOD speaking to them and neither do they hear Him speaking to me.

And let me make one correction here,....

I came to know The Lord Jesus in a mighty way one night at 3:30 in the morning on January 3rd 1992, when I looked up and asked for forgiveness for my life and for The Lord Jesus to come into my heart. This was after over 30 people had been praying for someone to get saved on my ship for over 30 days. GOD honed in on my heart the whole time and I finally reached up and received.

I did not get water immersed till about 6 months after that major event.

How can a voice be deemed audible if it is only heard by you and not by others? For this discussion, we'll define 'audible' as a sound that can be heard by the ears. Thus, when you say, "As a Pentecostal, everyone in my church also hears GOD speak to them. It's a common occurrence for us. I don't hear GOD speaking to them, nor do they hear Him speaking to me," are you suggesting that this audible voice is akin to a whisper?

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
How can a voice be deemed audible if it is only heard by you and not by others? For this discussion, we'll define 'audible' as a sound that can be heard by the ears.

How about we define "audible" as a sound heard in our spirit. GOD speaks to our very being, our hearts, not our ears.

You have a lot to learn there weedhopper.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
How about we define "audible" as a sound heard in our spirit. GOD speaks to our very being, our hearts, not our ears.

You have a lot to learn there weedhopper.

The term 'audible' is not defined in that manner; therefore, we should not use it as such. Create a different word for the meaning you've described, akin to 'as if I heard an audible voice'.

ARBITER01 · Jul 21, 2024

Xeno.of.athens said:
The term 'audible' is not defined in that manner; therefore, we should not use it as such. Create a different word for the meaning you've described, akin to 'as if I heard an audible voice'.

Well I'm sorry but I can't do that.

My explanation I provided is the best way I can explain it. I realize that you're interested in understanding this, but Spiritual matters can be hard to place into words and define at times.

When GOD is speaking to my heart, no one around me is going to hear it.

Xeno.of.athens · Jul 21, 2024

ARBITER01 said:
Well I'm sorry but I can't do that.

My explanation I provided is the best way I can explain it. I realize that you're interested in understanding this, but Spiritual matters can be hard to place into words and define at times.

When GOD is speaking to my heart, no one around me is going to hear it.

Indeed, God may speak to one's heart in a way that only they can understand, and while others cannot hear it, this communication is not considered audible, as 'audible' implies that it can be heard by the ear.

vain repetitions

Legend

Legend

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Senior Veteran

Legend

Legend

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Coptic Orthodox non-Egyptian

Legend

Legend

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Legend

Senior Veteran

Legend

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Legend

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Legend

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency