Using only the words of Jesus....

[gort]

And ignored the fact that the original greek translation would mean of an age.........also the fact that much of the book of revelation is metaphorical in nature but the lake of fire is conveniently interpreted literally for the doctrine of ET, what exactly is metaphorical in this chapter and what isn't...........death is also thrown into the lake of fire isnt it? How do people explain that one? it isnt a tangible object u can pick up and throw is it? Metaphor by any chance.....?

If its abundantly clear then show me some verses about hell, saying its clear without any evidence is meaningless

And the rich man and lazarus.....................I suggest u read this back yourself........! How can u possibly read this literally................if this is your support for an eternal hell then it is sadly lacking....................
Its a story........it has such an obvious message that i think Bunny'sfriend pointed out to Der Alter in a previous post
The rich man wanted for nothing materially, Lazarus had nothing and the rich man was in a position to show compassion and elected not to do so....epilogue:
Lazarus is comforted for the misery of his life and the rich man tastes misery for his selfishness.....its pretty straightforward.........
Why is it impossible to take it literally.........? if the rich man was being tormented with flames do u honestly think he would ask Lazarus to cool the tip of his tongue with water........??!! Do you not think that he would be crying out for a waterfall to douse the flames....??! Do you honestly think you'd actually be able to speak or say anything if you were burning alive....??! You'd be screaming in agony and that would be it....!

So please an end to this story being used to 'proove' hell, if thats the best that there is then the 'truth' of an eternal hell........(which cant actually be eternal if its thrown into the lake of fire anyway) is shrouded in mystery still.............again, i offer it to you or timlamb or anyone else to provide scriptural, irrefutable proof that this is the case..........

You are free to ignore what the Scriptures have to say regarding eternal damnation.

The clearest scripture of all has to do with blasphemy of the HS.

It never has forgiveness. This alone is irrefutable proof.To ignore this is clearly cognitive dissonance.

As for the rich man and Lazarus being read literally, it is a literal story. There's no need to invent waterfalls to to bias another meaning into it.

ANd there is no need to keep twisting hell being thrown into the LOF when Scripture clearly states that those not found in the book of Life are thrown into the LOF.

I've offered many times for those that argue the family word aion to be used to deliniate another age.

Show us from Scripture where there is another age after the LOF.

There is none.


If you want your arguement to show validity, then show from Scriptures, and not your opinions.

If I could show your opinion from Scripture, I would be a universalist, that is, one who says there is redemption from the LOF. I would vehemently fight the battle.

But I can't, because it aint there.

 

[Rev. Smith]

Let me reccomend a theology school method that often helps when study of an issue gets frozen.

Prove the other side. Each of you have raised valid arguments, from scripture and tradition to assert your positions. No go back to scripture and prove the other side, find theology that supports the other position, then see where you are.

I find it very instructive and have had my ind changed many times over the years.

 

[gort]

Let me reccomend a theology school method that often helps when study of an issue gets frozen.

Prove the other side. Each of you have raised valid arguments, from scripture and tradition to assert your positions. No go back to scripture and prove the other side, find theology that supports the other position, then see where you are.

I find it very instructive and have had my ind changed many times over the years.

Good advice and have done so, but can't find the evidence to prove the other side. If I could, I would argue the point.


Those who argue for christological universalism, at least in here, do so from the stance of redemption from the LOF at some point in time. It's from this we have the debate.

 

[Bananna]

To be clear,
I have no position on what is the final judgement of Christ.

It appears reasonable that all can be reconciled to Chriist.

However The final death seems pretty clearly total destruction... not an eternal torment but completely burned up.... consumed... like the word for "you shall consume no blood"

My present understanding is not set in stone, but to remain in agreement with the prophesy that all those that do not enter through one of the twelve gates of New Jeruselem will be destroyed... I presently believe that, Death and Hades are spirits of evil that will be destroyed.

Paul quoted the Hebrew scriptures about vessels of destruction

Jeremiah 18


1The word that hath been unto Jeremiah from Jehovah, saying,
2Rise, and thou hast gone down [to] the potter's house, and there I cause thee to hear My words;
3and I go down [to] the potter's house, and lo, he is doing a work on the stones,
4and marred is the vessel that he is making, as clay in the hand of the potter, and he hath turned and he maketh it another vessel, as it was right in the eyes of the potter to make.
5And there is a word of Jehovah to me, saying:
6As this potter am I not able to do to you? O house of Israel, an affirmation of Jehovah. Lo, as clay in the hand of the potter, So [are] ye in My hand, O house of Israel.
7The moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, To pluck up and to break down, and to destroy,
8And that nation hath turned from its evil, Because I have spoken against it, Then I have repented of the evil that I thought to do to it. 9And the moment I speak concerning a nation, And concerning a kingdom, to build, and to plant,

Romans 9:22
22And if God, willing to shew the wrath and to make known His power, did endure, in much long suffering, vessels of wrath fitted for destruction,

Yehoshuah taught from the Torah(God's precepts and instructions)
So to tie the above to what Yehoshuah (Jesus) taught...

Matt 5:18for, verily I say to you, till that the heaven and the earth may pass away, one iota or one tittle may not pass away from the law, till that all may come to pass.

So regardless of what people think the Greek scripture say, all the Hebrew scriptures are still profitable for teaching, reproof and training in righteousness. All the curses and blessings are still of eternal force and God will certainly repay. God has not changed since the beginning.
bananna

 

[red77]

You are free to ignore what the Scriptures have to say regarding eternal damnation.

The clearest scripture of all has to do with blasphemy of the HS.

It never has forgiveness. This alone is irrefutable proof.To ignore this is clearly cognitive dissonance.

As for the rich man and Lazarus being read literally, it is a literal story. There's no need to invent waterfalls to to bias another meaning into it.

ANd there is no need to keep twisting hell being thrown into the LOF when Scripture clearly states that those not found in the book of Life are thrown into the LOF.

I've offered many times for those that argue the family word aion to be used to deliniate another age.

Show us from Scripture where there is another age after the LOF.

There is none.


If you want your arguement to show validity, then show from Scriptures, and not your opinions.

If I could show your opinion from Scripture, I would be a universalist, that is, one who says there is redemption from the LOF. I would vehemently fight the battle.

But I can't, because it aint there.

Firstly, if you're open to the fact that translations of the original greek were mistranslated then there is no such thing as 'eternal' condemnation, I believe the verse you're referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit says if......it doesnt actually say that anyone would actually blaspheme the Holy Spirit in that manner does it?, unless you have ideas of what would actually constitute the blasphemy.......?

The rich man and Lazarus is a story.........for the reasons alone in my last post it has such a clear message in it but its jumped on by literalists who claim its proof of hell..........the waterfall analogy was to make a point......if he was being literally tormented with flames then asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue would be impossible..........to even think clearly would be impossible if you were being tortured, do you think that u could be able of coherent conversation if you were being burned........? So I'm sorry but if this is the extent of the 'proof' of scriptural evidence to support eternal damnation then its tenuous at the very best.........there should be verses that are irrefutably clear where there's no room for interpretation or misinterpretation of the message,

I'm not sure what you mean when u say i twist hell being thrown into the lake of fire............does it say it is or doesnt it......? I was under the impression that it says 'then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire'..........so I'm not twisting anything with that......or if i am I'm at a loss to understand what I'm twisting exactly...........

Its getting confusing to me just where those of u who believe in eternal damnation stand on this issue, Timlamb has stated he believes in eternal hell..........but the lake of fire would seem to refute that.........in an earlier post he said the bible teaching on hell wasn't very clear but it made it clear that not everyone would enter heaven........you say that the bible is abundantly clear on the issue.............if its abundantly clear then please explain...........

1: Is the book of revelation a chapter predominantly symbolic and if you agree is it not also reasonable that the actual LOF could also be a symbol and not a literal place....? Also is it not also reasonable to expect man made constructs such as time to be irrelevant in the afterlife..........If the original greek meaning lasting of an age is correct then the LOF whatever it happens to be would only go on for so long anyway.......

2: How do you explain being able to throw an intangible like death into anything........? Wouldnt that verse about hell and death being cast into the LOF be more symbolism or metephor.......how do u interpret it......?

3: What is hell exactly if its not an eternal place of torture?

 

[DrFate]

Luke was a Paulist.

 

[DrFate]

Yes, once the insults and ad hominem slurs started it went rather badly.

I suppose I should learn to ignore. Alas.....I just can't let false witness against myself go unanswered. Tim maintains that I am part of a "cult" , that I deliberately take verses out of context, that I ignore the words of Jesus, that I strut around on the threads like God owes me something, that I "dare" to have questions about Paul...and that I'm a lukewarm Christian being neither hot nor cold. THen he turns around and accuses me of attacking HIM and slinging dirt.

All of these accusations are false of course. But I wouldn't want any lurkers to think they were true. Those of you keeping up with the thread know what I've shown and how I've been more than willing to carefully explain any of my beliefs and show scripture and greek to back them up. You CK, know how I showed you about "drag" from the scriptures. Yet I am accused of just arbitrarily replacing "draw" with "drag" for no reason. Another false accusation.

It just gets rather old. Hypocrisy is cliche and extremely boring.....

BTW CK.....thanks for always being respectful and cordial even when we disagree....and for conceding a point when one is made. You have some very insightful ideas yourself.

Echo, what if you saved your stock responces to the things that are hurled at you and then cut and pasted them as answers to the new accusations? Just an idea.

 

[DrFate]

One hides and does nothing. That is how one goes through life without offending anyone.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

BTW CK.....thanks for always being respectful and cordial even when we disagree....and for conceding a point when one is made. You have some very insightful ideas yourself.

Thanks... I try. I don't know if you've seen the thread in the LDS forum about salvation for the dead. It's something that might interest you as an alternative or an addendum to your own universalist views.

I also recommend, if you've never read up on it, looking into inclusivism. John Sanders and Clark Pinnock have both produced insightful defenses of it.

While I concede that there may be some evidence for your view, I think there is better evidence for each of these. They both offer a a more moderate version of the "wider hope" you and I want to affirm.

-CK

 

[timlamb]

Firstly, if you're open to the fact that translations of the original greek were mistranslated then there is no such thing as 'eternal' condemnation, I believe the verse you're referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit says if......it doesnt actually say that anyone would actually blaspheme the Holy Spirit in that manner does it?, unless you have ideas of what would actually constitute the blasphemy.......?

The rich man and Lazarus is a story.........for the reasons alone in my last post it has such a clear message in it but its jumped on by literalists who claim its proof of hell..........the waterfall analogy was to make a point......if he was being literally tormented with flames then asking for a drop of water to cool his tongue would be impossible..........to even think clearly would be impossible if you were being tortured, do you think that u could be able of coherent conversation if you were being burned........? So I'm sorry but if this is the extent of the 'proof' of scriptural evidence to support eternal damnation then its tenuous at the very best.........there should be verses that are irrefutably clear where there's no room for interpretation or misinterpretation of the message,

I'm not sure what you mean when u say i twist hell being thrown into the lake of fire............does it say it is or doesnt it......? I was under the impression that it says 'then death and hell were cast into the lake of fire'..........so I'm not twisting anything with that......or if i am I'm at a loss to understand what I'm twisting exactly...........

Its getting confusing to me just where those of u who believe in eternal damnation stand on this issue, Timlamb has stated he believes in eternal hell..........but the lake of fire would seem to refute that.........in an earlier post he said the bible teaching on hell wasn't very clear but it made it clear that not everyone would enter heaven........you say that the bible is abundantly clear on the issue.............if its abundantly clear then please explain...........

1: Is the book of revelation a chapter predominantly symbolic and if you agree is it not also reasonable that the actual LOF could also be a symbol and not a literal place....? Also is it not also reasonable to expect man made constructs such as time to be irrelevant in the afterlife..........If the original greek meaning lasting of an age is correct then the LOF whatever it happens to be would only go on for so long anyway.......

2: How do you explain being able to throw an intangible like death into anything........? Wouldnt that verse about hell and death being cast into the LOF be more symbolism or metephor.......how do u interpret it......?

3: What is hell exactly if its not an eternal place of torture?

There you go again Red, manipulating the conversation to avoid the tough answer. Daneel ask for scripture to prove your case and you turn the tables.

And you misrepresent what I said. I gave benifit of the doubt, circumventing the arguement concerning what hell is, to make the point that the bible is very explicit as to the requirements for salvation. It is clear in no uncertain terms that not everyone will make it to heaven. It is also clear that the unsaved will be removed from the presence of God the father. Thus, whatever you want to make of hell, the lake of fire, or damnation, the saved go to be with God, the unsaved, of which there are many, will not be with God, and that is about as bad as it gets.

 

[hybrid]

hi red77,

2: How do you explain being able to throw an intangible like death into anything........? Wouldnt that verse about hell and death being cast into the LOF be more symbolism or metephor.......how do u interpret it......?

Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire.
The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev 20:14-15 NIV

please notice...

1. hades means grave
2. death and hades was symbolic of earthly death
3. lake of fire is the second death.


Jesus victory over death

Rev 21:4 There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away. NIV

1 Cor 15:26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. NIV

1 Cor 15:54-57 Death has been swallowed up in victory."

2 Tim 1:10 who (jesus) has destroyed death and has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel.NIV


it is therefore a very naturally interpretation to give meaning of jesus overcoming death, that the casting of death and grave to LOF as a second death is to say that death and hades will be no more.

satan and his minions then being cast to the LOF can mean the satan and evil will be no more in the age to come.


.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

Hi hybrid,

That passage could just easily be used to support annihilationism.

-CK

 

[EchoPneuma]

Thanks CK....I'll look into it. As far the rest of the stuff posted by Tim while I was gone.....I don't think there's anything worth answering....it's just the "same old, same old". The old cliche is appropo - You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.....

Blessings..
Echo (the Universalist Cult Leader)

 

[gort]

REd77 quotes:

Firstly, if you're open to the fact that translations of the original greek were mistranslated then there is no such thing as 'eternal' condemnation, I believe the verse you're referring to in regards to the Holy Spirit says if......it doesnt actually say that anyone would actually blaspheme the Holy Spirit in that manner does it?, unless you have ideas of what would actually constitute the blasphemy.......?

Point is, IF somebody DOES blasphemy the HS, there in NEVER forgiveness. You can slice it anywhich way you wants to, but never means never has forgiveness, which translates to eternal condemnation.

 

[CaliforniaKid]

So maybe we should believe in conditional universalism. As long as nobody commits the unforgivable sin, God will save everyone. Of course, in a sense, we're all conditional universalists. As long as everybody loves Jesus, there will be universal salvation!

 

[hybrid]

Hi hybrid,

That passage could just easily be used to support annihilationism.

-CK

i can live with that.

the bible said that the spirit that gives life to men will all eventually return to god. in a sense that's universalism.

about the soul, the bible's overall theme seemed to be anihilistic.

you know what's funny, the budhhist and the hindus believed they are enlightened once their soul was anihilated. and they do it in their earthly life.

but that's another story.

.

 

[hybrid]

So maybe we should believe in conditional universalism. As long as nobody commits the unforgivable sin, God will save everyone. Of course, in a sense, we're all conditional universalists. As long as everybody loves Jesus, there will be universal salvation!

i can live with that too.


.

 

[bunnysfriend]

Point is, IF somebody DOES blasphemy the HS, there in NEVER forgiveness. You can slice it anywhich way you wants to, but never means never has forgiveness, which translates to eternal condemnation.

but what exactly is blasphemy of the holy spirit? i dont think it is disbelief, thats not what i read. blasphemy of the holy spirit seems to me to be calling the works of the holy spirit evil, of course this gets twisted to mean disbelief is blasphemy of the holy spirit, but ive never understood this.

 

[red77]

There you go again Red, manipulating the conversation to avoid the tough answer. Daneel ask for scripture to prove your case and you turn the tables.

And you misrepresent what I said. I gave benifit of the doubt, circumventing the arguement concerning what hell is, to make the point that the bible is very explicit as to the requirements for salvation. It is clear in no uncertain terms that not everyone will make it to heaven. It is also clear that the unsaved will be removed from the presence of God the father. Thus, whatever you want to make of hell, the lake of fire, or damnation, the saved go to be with God, the unsaved, of which there are many, will not be with God, and that is about as bad as it gets.

Tim.....I'm sorry u see this as manipulation, the best i can say is this........this is a debate, not only that but its a debate about a highly emotive issue, if i see what i consider to be inconsistencies or innacurracies in the ET camp (for want of a better description) then I will point them out and have no problem in doing so, its nothing personal and likewise if there's the same from your side you'd do the same, lets agree that this is gonna get charged and stop throwing our toys out the pram so to speak......


You ask for scripture, its been provided by myself and others plenty of times, I dont have a bible to hand as of this minute but the verses about God is the saviour of all men, especially of those that believe and God wills all men to be safe and come to a knowledge of the truth are two off the top of my head


Now I've asked about scriptural evidence to prove a literal hell where the clarity is undeniable, where interpretation wouldnt enter into the equation and it would be clear in black and white.........I've not just asked this of you or Daneel but several other people on this forum and not one person has been able to provide it......interpretations and suppositions abound in realtion to different verses but at the end of the day the 'truth' of the matter is muddled at best despite all those who ascribe climing to have the answers


So I'll ask again, where does it say in an unequivocable way that many people, in fact the majority of people if i read your previous post correctly, will not be reconciled to God.....?

 

[red77]

Point is, IF somebody DOES blasphemy the HS, there in NEVER forgiveness. You can slice it anywhich way you wants to, but never means never has forgiveness, which translates to eternal condemnation.

I'm not sure about this to be honest but aren't there some translations that put this differently anyway? That they're in danger of not being forgiven but not actually outright not.......?
If you could address the other questions i asked it would be appreciated as well, thanks